svdl, You might want to try the current version of DS. It's the 1st Release Candidate and it's very stable indeed. Version 1.0 is very near now. 'Advanced lighting options such as image-based lighting (HDRI), ambient occlusion, soft raytraced shadows are things you won't find in D|S' Well, strictly speaking, no. But you can hack the light shaders to get IBL in DS. Bit of a pain for most users, mind you, but it can be done. Actually, I find soft raytraced shadows are far better in DS than P6, but that's only my opinion. Still, without a doubt, P6 is good value for money. No matter how much I despair of poser at times, you can't beat it's price for a 3d app. Oh and that's a good point about Bryce/Vue. DS is strongly integrated with Bryce and Poser with Vue/Shade. mac