You're talking about patience, rockjockjared, in fact once you get the knack, modelling in the vertex modeller can be quite fast . I've done this model last night in an hour ( no more no less ), to see if the techniques i use can be effective . Well, it surely still needs some work but there is some details already : eye sockets, nostrils ... Ears and hair are a pain to me . I wonder if other softwares modellers are that much productive than Carrara's vertex modeller ?... litst litst.@freesbee.fr