I've never done a rant on Rosity before, but!!!! I've just bought another few items, and YET AGAIN!!!!!! the merchant has felt compelled to preface everything with a !!!!ing row of exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!! This is just getting so annoying. I wish I knew in advance which merchants routinely do this, so I could stop buying their stuff. I'm sorely tempted to set up a 'name and shame' webpage to share names of the worst offenders... (not really... but it's a thought...) Also, why do they have to unnecessarly bury stuff so many folders deep in the runtime? Runtime/textures/merchant/emptyfolder/emptyfolder/stuff. Vendors, if your stuff is good, we'll use it! You don't have to indulge in a 'mine is bigger than yours' battle with the other vendors to get our attention in our own runtime folders. (er.. 'mine is bigger than yours' refers, just to be clear, to the number of !!!!!!!s. Though maybe it's an attempt to compensate for deficiencies in other areas.) OK. Sorry. I'm all ranted out. I just needed to get that off my chest. I'm not even going to end this message with a ! Oops. I just did!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for making it ! ... And, I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!

;=[

Actually, it just occured to me you CAN! On the product page, click the link to the products README. Usually the merchant/vendor lists the files and their locations. If you see !!! then you know.

Actually, it just occured to me you CAN!<<< Banging head on desk! Why didn't I think of that?!!!! Good point - thanks!

my question is, why does Rosity allow it. And a name and shame would not be out of line. They are not getting the point

re: "They are not getting the point" Oh Yes!, they are ....... and it's an "exclaimation point" !!!!!!!! ;=]

I would like to add that as a merchant that USED to do this, some of my older products may have the !!!'s,but I stopped using them after the very first rant about them. so see...some of us ARE listening :0) -3dz

@3dz I've noticed that and it's why I still buy.

you could always add a comment on the review page...make it nice though or it may get deleted.

It's a really dreadful disease, and I'm glad to say that none of my products have ever been struck by this deadly affliction. They're all healthy, with not an exclamation mark in sight. Luckily it's not infectious, and there's a simple cure. Listen to the customers! mac

How about some kind of lobby to Rosity to ban merchants doing this, we could start a reform in the Poser world.

I just ran across that this morning. I lost track of the !! after the fourth one. Not from RMP. Another good one is the underscore_

The obvious reasons for this affliction are: 1. Poser has no library sorting other than ASCII (and a strange one at that). 2. The library shows items and folders in a straight list up until P6. 3. People take advantage of 1. and 2. Personally, I despise this practice. For my own testing purposes (not for products), I prepend test folders in the library with '_' in order keep the folders at the top for quick access. But that's only for me! ;) One possible way to reward these merchants is to go to each of your Runtime:libraries folders (the ones displayed in Poser) and use a rename application (I have DirectoryOpus for such means) to change all of the '!' to something else - 'Z' for instance. Now they are all at the bottom!

I use 0 (zero) to keep my current project folders at the top. But of course, that's only while I'm working on a product. They're all remaned before the final installer's made. The thing is, this topic comes up with monotonous regularity in this forum (about 6 - 8 times a year), and nothing ever changes. What can it be in some people's mentality that makes them want to be at the top of our Runtimes? If a product's good, I'll use it. End of story. And if it's bad, no amount of !!!!!!!!!!!!'s will get me to use it. In fact, it merely annoys the s**t out of me because of the extra work in renaming everything. So what are these merchants trying to gain by doing it? 'The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind....' mac

Can we blame DAZ ? - they seem to have made it standard practice with the Generation 3 Figures.

I honestly don't know how poor old PP users cope with the library limit....

BTW - the (unofficial?)Merchant guidelines I last saw suggested that this was not a good practice here at RMP.

Edit with a further thought:...
Also, why do they have to unnecessarly bury stuff so many folders deep in the runtime? Runtime/textures/merchant/emptyfolder/emptyfolder/stuff.

That's why I always extract to a temporary location first - I once found a certain kind soul whilst showering us with freebies was adding about 15 empty folders as well as changing the links in the help menu

Message edited on: 09/11/2005 16:11

Message edited on: 09/11/2005 16:13

Agree with the exclamation mark rant. It's irritating. A deeper folder structure may be a good idea. I like an organized runtime, and I like organized geometries and textures folders too. A structure like Runtime/geometries/merchant/categoryname/productname (and the same for textures) will allow the user easier deletion of the product. Same goes for readme files. They're traditionally called readme.txt, sometimes they even contain useful information that I might want to look up later. But I don't want to scrounge through several hundred readme.txt files to searchh for that info and then find that it has been overwritten by another readme.txt... So I use the folder structure Runtime/readme/merchant/product/readme.txt - now it's possible to FIND it.

Actually, since I got to have my rant, I should come clean and admit to some of my Poser cluelessness (is that a word?) The thing is, I'm ignorant about what I can safely rename in Poser, and what directories I can safely move around - or what will stop working if I even look at it funny. I really will have to get clued up on this. In the meantime, I think I'll check those vendor readme files, and if I see lots of !!!!!s I'll send the vendor a (polite) note explaining why I won't be buying it. I may not get such a polite reply, but hey, that's life. If people stopped buying the things, I bet the practice would die out overnight.

I don't think there's any excuse for it. Like Mac I had the same problem when creating and doing my own projects though, putting an extra character on the front means not have to scroll all the way down the bottom to find your own project folders. But one should always rename them accordingly afterwards. As for empty folders..... Think that depends on preference and how people like to have their heirarchy. For instance my free textures go into a directory.. runtime/textures/starmage/Product name/Texture name/ This makes it easy for me to find. Although I realise some might find that heirarchy a little excessive.

It isn't safe to rename INJ/REM folders, i.e.: "!DAZ", in the Runtime libraries folder! This is why I specifically stated the ones that display in Poser (characters, hands, lights, cameras, poses, props, face).

if the buyers (YES YOU LOT)have a look at the stuff they have paid hard cash for, and find any files !!!!!!!, then leave a review saying you are unhappy with it and will not be buying any more from that seller until they change. then have a look at the stuff in your wish list and tell them you would like to but will not untill they give you what you want, a simple well layed out file list. come on its not that bloody hard.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also find it aggravating a bit when others decide for me what goes at the top of my runtime.

Ermmm Someone was just having a rant. :) Also, if I might add... I think the 'Rosity community likes to be seen as one that supports itself. Speaking for myself I wouldn't want to put this kind of stuff in a review (some people would find it pedantic). As someone who is studying Human Computer Interfaces though at the moment in Uni..... If this comes up as often in the Forum as is suggested then obviously the merchants are not listening to the clients. Whether it appears in a review or not is irrelevant, there are obviously enough people who dislike it to warrant a change (whether the users threaten to not purchase products or not). For the merchants.... Rule of thumb.. "You are not your own user". (Quote from "Interactive Design"

just had look in my wish list and around 40% use !! or __or --in file names. sent them the sad news "i am sorry to say that i will not be buying your "insert name of sale item here" as i had planned i have had enough of file that have !! or __ or -- in them. if you change the way you name files let me know and i may change my mind" i am sorry because alot of this stuff is good. so come on merchants give us what we want, before some elsa

'obviously the merchants are not listening to the clients' I don't think that's quite the case. You'll find that most reputable merchants don't feel they have to resort to infantile trickery to get you to use their products. The ones who do this are people who are either just starting out, or who don't visit the forums or hear the users, therefore don't even know the problem exists. (This can be for a number of reasons - non-english speaking being one of them). That's why I subscribe to the view that e-mailing the merchant directly is the only way to get a result. I put my addy in the help file for every product and urge people to mail me with comments, complaints and suggestions. Most good merchants LIKE to hear from customers. And if there's even the smallest thing wrong with one of my products, I want to know about it. mac

SoulTaker, Well done! That's the way to do it. Loss of sales is the one thing all merchants take notice of! mac

maclean Well I meant the ones who don't bother to change after they've been told the problem exists or have been notified of it. True, language is always a problem but with tools like the Bable fish online it's becoming less of an excuse :)

Ok 2 things first is it the punctuation in folder name that is the main problem or inside of the folder as well
(I use in there to keep main mat and inj files at top for ease of use)
and yes I am one (of the many I think) who received an im from SoulTaker which I checked the product - I found there was also a space in folder name - both as a partner and individual I have released 32 products since then none of which are like this lol I think there were a few - especially early ones that were worse too with the dreaded ! in the folder names too :o| edited to add I think 32 products show i have mended my ways ;o)

Message edited on: 09/11/2005 19:29

Once again don't forget this started because P4/PP have limits on the number of folders that show up.
Not being able to access new items when first installed was irritating.

I need more coffee - hate monday mornings lol but i am not going to edit the above again lol so I appologise for my bad spelling and the too many too's sigh

You in Australia Chrislenn? I hate Monday mornings too (sipping an iced coffee)

'I think 32 products show i have mended my ways' I think so too, and it's good to see you come in here and explain your point of view. There's nothing worse than a merchant who's afraid to face the customers. But you bring up an important point. A lot of products with !!! folders may actually be older products made long before people started complaining about this. Let's not forget that at one time, this was all the rage - started by DAZ, curse them! (And I'm a DAZ broker). So sometimes it's worth finding out if the merchant does this as a general rule, or if it's a once-off, before sending off e-mails to them. Check a few other products and see if they all do it. mac

bit cold for iced coffee lol Am in Vic Aussie land and is only 4c at moment hurry up spring When I first started as a merchant I didn't have a clue and just did what my favourite merchants were doing and that included the ! then I stopped as everyone seemed to be doing it. Bought a product with a space and started doing that - Out of interest I checked my 60 products and found 6 with the space no more !. 3 are warehoused but the others are still selling well so maybe worth updating coffee is ready ;o)

Bit warmer in NSW today.... Although bit of a nippy wind :)

! is sort of a Roman shorthand for IO..more useless information..;) at least that's where it got started..

Look at it this way, once all of the product folder names start with "!", your library will be in alphabetical order again :-) Particles 2 uses the library folder "%Particles 2", and I debated this one for a while before releasing. Here's my reasoning: 1) It's a "plug-in" folder, rather than a content folder. The included sample content is in a folder called "Particle Systems" (no fancy out-of-order stuff going on there). 2) I'm hoping that the "%" will come to signify a folder full of Python script launchers, and ultimately make it easier for users to sift through their own content. 3) It moves the "%Particles 2" out of the way of other content folders to a predictable location. As much distance is put between it and the normal figure folders as Poser will allow, as to visually distance it from traditional figure folders. So I think there are some good reasons for using special characters in folder names, despite primary use with less-than-noble-intent. It cheeses me as well when I open a library and the content is just all over the place because half of the content creators wanted their stuff at the top.

"Look at it this way, once all of the product folder names start with "!", your library will be in alphabetical order again :-)" And then names will all start with aaaaaa to achieve the same effect lol

"Can we blame DAZ ? - they seem to have made it standard practice with the Generation 3 Figures." uhh actually no it's not DAZ's fault. Merchants were using !'s long before the gen 3 figures. I'm not gonna name names as to who first started it.. (not entirely sure) but i have files from 2001 that have the folder prefaced with ! 2002 we find 2 !. and in one merchants items I find !!!!!!!!! (9) !'s before the file name which is quite a pain. Find a good folder renamer and only focus the program on the libraries/character libraries/pose and so on and so forth just leave the !Daz Folder alone :)

Poserworks... I'd be careful about following that sort of reasoning. You are making judgements on what you "think" other peoples preferences are in the way they name their folders or want them named. Putting "Pythong - Particules two" is just a valid way of doing it to "%Particles Two".

LOL You can rename your folders (at least the library ones -dont change the texture folder's name) to something else if the exclamations bother you. The only thing that has to remain named as the merchant named it is the texture folder. Also, keep in mind the injection files to a character pack often have exclamations to keep things in order in the folder - the morphs are usually first (and usually have the exclamations or some other character), then everything else follows in suit, alphabetically. We do this so it all stays grouped together and its not all chaotically placed in the folder. Believe it or not, there is a method in the madness.... its to ease customers confusion when using the injections. I hope this helps :o)

If only that was all it was for............

I think inside the folder (pose folder) it is - for me anyway :O) folder names are for a whole different reason :o|

Yes I've used them for divider thumbnails that I want to stay in a specific place. But that's about it.

you CAN change and rearrange the textures folders to suit yourself. You just need to run correct reference on it afterwards. I don't leave anything in the original order because they just don't make sense to me. My textures are arranged by model category (characters, animals, props,clothes,hair, etc.)/model (vicky, mike, mildog,Hooded cloak,Gel hair, etc)/package name (Brandy, Boris, etc) and THEN merchant name if an extra folder is needed. And I never EVER install directly to my runtime. I always install to a dummy runtime first, arrange things the way I want them and run correct reference. That way I know if there are missing files and such BEFORE I wind up cluttering my runtime with something that's going to give me headaches when I load it. You wouldn't believe how many incorrect paths and file references there are in the products out there - and missing texture files is a LOT more prevalent that people think it is.

just a few replys to my IM. make of them what you will. "One thing...i NEVER, never force anyone to buy from me." or "Well.. we do not force anyone to buy our ptoducts... and there are only 2 folders that if they bother you, you can change the names easily by removing the !!." but i think the best is this one "Please do not waste my time anymore and I'm sorry you have so much time to waste." mmm customer service, think i will go look it up again!!!!!

lol SoulTaker .... Pity about those.......

when i sent my reply I didn't realize the space was in the folder name so thought it was the inside stuff that was wrong lol so at least in mine i may come across a bit thick but better that than rude :o|

SoulTaker, Wow!
That is an absolute nono response.

Had we (my husband and I) treated our customers in the computer game market that way we would have been out of business long time ago.

I don't care what vendors call their folders. I always unzip to a dummy folder first and then rename folders so they suit me - and then copy to Runtime. That way I know where everything is. Why should I trust someone else to get it right for me? :] Fish

I have never used the !!! I hate them myself. All my products folders follow the "DCM_name of product" convention so all my stuff will always be together in your Pose folders etc... I am quite happy being tucked away in the D section of your runtime folders :-)

Okay, I am hoping you'e referring to Mint Poserworks 2000?We don't have anything to do with Pythong or Particles 2... at least not that I'm aware of/familiar with. Am I wrong, uninformed, crazy, all the above? : / pg