Has anyone here made an attempt to give any of the Daz Millennium figures articulated toes? I was putting Stephanie Petite into a tip-toe pose (reaching for something high) and it struck me how unrealistic the feet look. Since the toes cannot spread outward, she suffers from "Barbie foot", which really hurts the photorealism. How difficult would it be to extend the CR2 and make each toe a group?

Yeah, the Millenium feet stink! (Pun intended!) I was using a kneeling pose and all looked great until I got to the feet. Not just the toes, but the feet proper. Barbie toes! That's a great name for 'em.

Hopefully, one of the expert modellers can answer this for you. Apollo Max is the only human figure I know about with all those detailed toe joint groups and parameters, although I believe there are some old animal models that may have them. This isn't part of your question, but it raises some concern that a modeller trying to add toe joints to an old Daz model might be tempted to use Anton's joint parameters to save time and effort. There isn't alot of precedent for rights in regard to joint parameters, but my belief is that we shouldn't copy them without permission.

The standard Poser 5 and 6 figures all have movable toes, but that really adds complications to conforming socks and shoes. Also posing. I've heard more people complain about them than not. Jim Buton's modified Jessi character incorperates a compromise, big toe joints and the rest of the toes as a seperate object that looks promising, tho. mike

I really don't see that much need for jointed toes. A morph or two would do just about all the motion range needed for people I have seen.

I hadn't really given V3's feet any thought until after I bought Apollo Maximus and discovered the merits of individual toe movements. Now I wish that V3's toes moved individually too.

Not just the toes, but the feet. See attached image.

Feet don't bend except at the toes and ankles. At least not any I have seen :)

Here's a pic of P6 Jessi's feet in a similar pose after using a JP and scaling Pose I've been working on. Jessi straight out of the box has posable toes. mike

Apollo Max is the only human figure I know about with all those detailed toe joint groups and parameters, although I believe there are some old animal models that may have them. The babies from cubed.ie have articulated toes. Just thought I'd mention. bonni

Yeah, well I can see how babies would need working toes. How else would we do the old "one little piggie, two little piggies" etc.? ;-)

Ghostofmacbeth. The location where the toes bend looks like the funky bending in the elbows of some models. The morph required should be some sort of JCM so when the toes are bent there is some reflection in that in the "metatarsals".

After seeing those pictures, I have to wonder if anyone involved in the design has looked at their own feet. The human foot is a complicated structure, and unless you're a ballet dancer your toes aren't a primary load-carying area. Most of the toe-bend in those kneeling feet is in the wrong place. The ball of the foot is completely off the ground, and it may even be that the toes are bent in the wrong direction anyway. I'm afraid it looks partly to be broken posing.

The problem I'm seeing is not only the toes bending at the wrong point, but the fact that all 5 toes bend together the same amount. Look at the right foot in the photo, you will see that while the big toe is bent back 70 degrees or so, the other toes are bent less, with the little toe showing basically zero bend. Try to reproduce this pose with any millennium figure, and you'll see just how unrealistic it looks with the toes all bend the same way like a hinged flap.

The thing is that the feet do have other controls that help other than "bend" and that is partly where the problem lies. As AntoniaTiger said, it is partly a posing problem. Not to say that they can't be improved upon but I just rally don't see the need for fully jointed toes since they really don't move THAT much :)

I only took about 20 minutes on this. With some more work it probably could be made better. Again this is Jessi Hi res with some Joint Parameter tweaks I'm working on. The individual toe joints could use some more work, but I'm not sure the benefits would be worth all the agrivation. mike

Mike, here's a crazy thought. All these fancy pose files, such as MAT poses, work by adding to or replacing bits in the .cr2 file. So could a pose like that one, depending on a tweaked Joint Parameter, load the tweaked values?

Antonia, THat's what I've been using. The Pose file I have already generated re-scales Jessi's feet to (what I believe) is a better looking proportions AND it reassigns the joint parameters. So far I have it reassiging the ankle (foot group) slightly and the "combined" toe group to lengthen the foot slightly and stop, somewhat, the big divit taken out of the top of the foot if the toes are bent "up". I'll post a comparrison picture a little later (I have to make one) to show the difference. As I said the individual toes should also be adjusted, I'm just not sure I want to take the time at this point. The changes I made were to allow me to make stockings and high heels for Jessi and not have them look as bad as those made for the original foot. mike

The foot on the left is the original Jessi. The foot on the right has had my pose file run on it. I think it's and improvement. I have one problem with the pose file in that it moves the feet back to the original spacial postition when it's run. I'm trying to find the part of the fiel that causes that and remove it, but sofar any thing I've done also "damages" the JP's... mike

I also don't really see any need for articulated toes, it just gets too complicated for most other posing. That is why I simplified Glamorous Jessi's toes, she has only 5 parts in her feet where stock Jessi has 17. Plus a put in a dial that bends the "toes" and "big toe" at the same time. I also did a ton of reshaping on her feet, and put in switching feet, but that is another story. ;-) Here is how she stands barefoot.

Jim, I mentioned Glamoros Jessi earlier in this thread. She's an excellent alternative to the standard Jessi and the re-work you've done to her joints are fantastic. Also the price your charging for here is much more than reasonable. I personally think that the Joint set up in here is probably the optimum, standard Jessi's toes are more work than needed for MOST renders, and the thought of working with them for animation.... well I don't have that kind of patience. Galorous Jessi certainly has my ighest recommendation! mike

I'm basing this on my own feet; I'm not young, I fall off high heels, and I'm not a dancer. I don't think you can have more than 60 degrees of bend on the foot and carry weight. The weight has to be on the ball of the foot, behind the toes, on transferred by the design of a shoe. Dancers, especially ballet, do a lot of damage to their feet while they exceed that limit. If you want that sort of extreme posing, don't forget the back of the heel. I'm not sure from the angle of the pictures above, but I think you'd need to pay attention to the line of the achilles tendon. And my final word on the subject is this. OUCH!!!

Because of the proximity of the Mil toe geom, the mesh would have to be regrouped for the toes to articulate. -------------------------------------------------------- Toes really have no negative impact at all on shoes and socks. This is a myth. But you have a proper understanding joints and cr2's. Apollo has no problems with the little piggies and shoes at all. :). -------------------------------------------------------- "Feet don't bend except at the toes and ankles. At least not any I have seen :)" Not quite an accurate statement. The muscles of the feet flex and bludge most notibly when arched. Poser isn't always about bones, but sometimes muscles as well. -----------------------------------------------------

Yep, muscles do bend and flex and there needs to be some compensation for that but that is still the bend points :) . I think there was another picture that had more bend points indicated. Like the wanted it to bend in the middle of the foot or something. It is early but I think that is what I remember. I have never seen anyone's toes that could bend that way. Not saying it isn't possible but I have never seen it. That is without pushing on toes to make it go that way.

NO! The arrow did not point to BENDS in the middle of the foot. The caption says "Some sort of MORPHS (emphasis here mine, as was the image and message) needed here." There are is stuff in the foot that moves and bulges when your feet move. The image shows an ugly foot. When the foot in the position as shown in the image (#7 above) there should be some reflection of the metatarsals and tendons being affected.

It isn't really about whether you bend your toes that way but rather what forces might be in contact with your toes as well. Different people and circumstances deform toes in different ways. If toes weren't mean't to bend, our wouldn't either. We obviously have toe joints for a reason.

As I said, I might have mis remembered it .. Sorry. Goes away from the discussion, thinking it isn't worth it

I give too :)!