I'm sick of everyone bashing CL/EF characters, because the Jp's suck, or the knees bend weird. Their characters are rigged differently from DAZ characters, so that it is easier on resources to animate. True, when in extreme static poses, there is breakage in the knees and some limbs. That is expected with the way POSER handles joints and its internal rigging configuration. Until there are plugins for collision, weight mapping, and more complex muscle type morphs, Poser is as close as it gets. NOW, in regards to DAZ's characters, DAZ made simpler posing more difficult. DAZ added in the buttocks groups and joints, using spherical falloffs, tons of JCM's, JP's, and lots of ERC. In static poses, DAZ's characters look better when posed in similar extreme poses. However, the added bloat in the rigging and cr2s makes animation more resource intensive. This added bloat makes conforming clothes creation difficult; because for the clothes to bend and adjust accordingly, it also must have matching JP's, JCM's, ERC, etc. It is a long and tedious process to add all that in to a simple clothing item. This is why I have avoided spending a lot of time modeling stuff for DAZ characters. Finally, to the armchair complainers, try rigging a mesh like Jessi, V3, or Judy without using JCMs, and also without Dr. Geep's rigging tutorials. It isn't easy! -Starkdog