fwiw... c3, c4 did and I assume c5 does have symmetry.. and you can get this into the vertex modeller..but its not a set of plain steps to get it to do so. I built a crocodile in carrara 4's vertex modeler (yes it is the crocodile that I have in the marketplace here..and it is the best seller..outside of the bryce 5.5 tute dvd..that I have made) and I used "symmetry" in carrara to do it. and for my initial impressions of c5... it ROCKS with a capital RRRRRR the particle engine alone opens up entirely new worlds (literally) to c5 users..again, not so obvious..but now entire wars can be fought with 3 models and NO keyframes!..very cool. Im pressing it beyond what any 'sane' person would probably do..but no-one said I was sane..lol. It is possible to crash..and some things are a bit buggy, but its a beta and it is a "serious" upgrade. I also used to be confused as an employee of Eovia..which I am not. If they made a piece of crap, Id say so. But as of yet..from the creation of amapi designer forward, every release of every program they have set forward has been something of which they should be proud. my .02 :) BT