Ringo commment about symmeterical modeling for Carrara please. Yeah Ringo, stop holding out on us and start talking. :>) wayne k guam usa

Quote :My only complaint (which has been one for some time) is Carrara's poor implementation of visible, volumetric lighting with shadows. They won't stream through glass! The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold. Also, the color of the glass (or other transparent material) is not picked up and transmitted beyond the, glass. trueSpace excels at this, and even Vue5I will do it, but for some reason, Eovia lets this one get through revision after revision? If someone at Eovia is reading this give us some good realistic volumetric, visible, foggy particulate laden lights! Do this before C5Pro hits the streets. This tired spotlight (and other light effects as well) has been pretty much unchanged from the old RD days! No offense to Gweb as he might a legit complaint(but I've seen this complaint/request umpteen times already). That said, I'd like to more about the above quote. The more info that is available, the easier it for future potential customers to decide. I hope I'm not being rude, I don't mean to be, I'm just more interested in things like this. The guts so to speak. Thanks :)

Gweb, didn't Bob Stockwell from Eovia specifically say no symmetrical modeling this time? How is Ringo, who doesn't work for Eovia, gonna help with that? Sorry, if I am missing something. I would like it too, but doesn't look like it is going to be there.I would be also interested in the answer to the above question. I am going to see...Maybe you have to use anything glows for this. I thought carrara would do this.

Message edited on: 11/01/2005 16:55

Isn't the picture above doing what you described. There are some in the backroom under articles that may also be similiar. I think I see what you are saying, but an example would help.

Shonner: I am not type of a member who likes to have gallery here. Ren Mem: I just know Ringo is well known members who have alot of information on Carrara product and may have close relationship with Eovia team. Didnt anyone notice someone from Eovia team post thread in Renderosity? dlk30341: Yes my request information on symmetery function is reasonable and it would help me decide to purchase upgrade. Unfortunately, as a modeling user, I can careless about new implementatiions that was posted in C5 announcement. I am waiting to hear a comment from Eovia on symmeterical function that I asked for many years since RDS era. ;)

Shonner: you may look for threads with pics I posted. Theyu are only ones I would post to help other members to make complex modeling possible.

Gweb, it's a reasonable request, but I think they answered it. "Symmetry is not planned for the Carrara 5 release. It is available in the Eovia Hexagon modeler." Bob Stockwell Director, Sales and Marketing Eovia Corp. The rendering aspects in carrara are very important I think because that is the main reason you would buy the product.

What do you mean that you think they answered it? Where did you find this quote from? "Symmetry is not planned for the Carrara 5 release. It is available in the Eovia Hexagon modeler." Bob Stockwell Director, Sales and Marketing Eovia Corp. If that is the truth then Carrara is not a worthy piece of modeler software at all then why should it have VM and some other cutie modeling rooms inside Carrara anyways? I asked for symmetry since RDS and they knew our needs. I am not reallly happpy to learn that I have to deal with export and import function between Hexagon and Carrara, it is a waste of time for mass models.

GWeb. He posted that message to you last week. :-) No symmetrical modeling for this version of the VM. Pascal Doux the engineer behind the new Vertex Modeler and the Lead Engineer of Hexagon said that not in this version but in a future version as in C6. Ringo

Ringo I would buy symetery plug-in for Carrara the same price of Hexagon. Geez They are so sick developers for not including symetery in Carrara modeling room. They want us to be insane.

Yes Gweb, that was in the c5 announcement thread. I am not saying the modeling isn't important, just that it isn't as much as rendering...people usually buy these programs w/ rendering in mind some have almost no modeling.Modeling programs often don't have good rendering either. Just the way it is.To get it all there are other more costly programs.

Symmetry is so simple to make, they need to set up database system to make symmetry for points to be on exact duplicated side or multiple sides. I do not see a good reason why they should not implement symmetry in Carrara.

Nice example Brian. wayne k guam usa By the way, did you use symmetrical modeling to make those 3 spheres?

"My only complaint (which has been one for some time) is Carrara's poor implementation of visible, volumetric lighting with shadows. They won't stream through glass! The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold." This is true. The only way around this is to deselect cast shadows on the glass object. Which in many times this will work, but I realize that their are many cases where it won't.

So, why don't we presently have a GWeb forum, just to deal with Gweb's insatiable need for symmetrical modelling...?

Jeepers Crimminy...

Somebody give this boy some symmetry! ditto Jeepers Crimminy...

"Symmetry is so simple to make, they need to set up database system to make symmetry for points to be on exact duplicated side or multiple sides." In that case, grab a C++ compiler, write a plugin, sell it and become rich. :)

Gweb...are you sane? :-) Seriously First was the "Shift" key deal in the VM. It was the only thing that you wanted change in the VM. So now they add a new engine that will continue to be develop and you are not happy. Well live with it. You have Hexagon. Believe me I wanted other stuff in the VM but I"m very happy with what they have done in the amount of time they had. You can't have it all in one huge upgrade. Ringo

"This is true. The only way around this is to deselect cast shadows on the glass object. Which in many times this will work, but I realize that their are many cases where it won't."

Problem with that solution is then the light cones become super XRays beams, and will pass through about anything. I didn't even get into photon attenuation.

Of couse the problem is that the visible (light cones) are really post rendering effects, not raytraced effects.

The above example does not employ the visible light cone with particle/shadow effects. But certainly is a good example of raytraced light effects.

BTW, I compared "Anything Groves" and C5P's displacement texturing on identical objects/textures. Carrara's native displacement maps are much quicker and resource efficient.

LOL of all posts!! :D RINGO: Shift key is diease key!! I can not do symmetery on every polygon!! I am using TabletPC and I have problem with keys. ZBrush is real nice for TabletPC but it is not polygon modeler app. There is never a single reason to use keyboard for 3D interface! I do not like to write obj file name for import and export function to Carrara. I want most things done in it. I can not think of anything I would want to model in Carrara without symmetery. It is so painful to model with shift key to mirror every polygon. I would like to see Carrara use eraser function for eraseable pen. I hope it will be implemented in C6. I still think Eovia should implement symmetry in Carrara since version 3 era.

Stewer: "In that case, grab a C++ compiler, write a plugin, sell it and become rich. :)" I would but Eovia would not release SDK for VM or Spline room. So... I do not have time to make a new modeler room from scratch.

This is why I wanted a specific example. Pics help. So is there a viable way around this..Is this still an issue? Sounds like it.Colored shadows..is easy enough to understand, but what about colored beams...can you use a particle shader?

Hey LCBoliou, got an example from vue or truespace of the volumetric light effect? Are you using the default renderer in TS or the nicer plugin.Thanks.

"Problem with that solution is then the light cones become super XRays beams, and will pass through about anything. I didn't even get into photon attenuation. Of couse the problem is that the visible (light cones) are really post rendering effects, not raytraced effects." Agreed. Its something that should be fixed. Perhaps C6. Though I have a extensive list for C6.

GWeb, i agree with some of your critics... the reasons why i'll not buy this version of carrara (and probably also the next releases at this point) is that the develop is too much slow, not enough plug ins, no scripting, no advanced technology. I have wait years to see at least symmetry in the VM or a decent UV editor. I think that is absurd that i need to wait the years 2007 to have this basic features in a 3D software. With the release 5 we can have the optional but not the essential once again. -TOXE

Maybe we can ask for a symmetrical lighting model in C6 wayne k guam usa

Yes, we can but we'll see it for sure in Carrara 10 EXOT-

Well if I can do all the things that Carrara5 can do at the very highest quality possible---BEFORE I DIE---I will be a very happy ghost to you all!

TOXE, just out of curiosity...what do you prefer to use?

Now Lightwave as main software, Wings and Zbrush for modeling, SolidThinking for NURBS and engineering, Maxwell Render for rendering. And of course Carrara for other little things and because i've used it for many years and i have millions of file in my HD! -TOXE

Millions of file. OUCH!.. ;)

TOXE: What are your opinions on Lightwave. How was the transition from Carrara to Lightwave? You were one of the Carrara super-users, so it would be interesting to hear your point of view. Thanks.

Hi vinividivinci, thanks for the "super-user";-) This is the forum of Carrara, so i don't want to compare different softwares from different software houses. We'll talk about it in a private conversation if you want... BTW, the transition is very hard, but i need to do it now because i'm still enough young to crash my head on my desk. -TOXE

GWeb- Notice... a 'super-user' uses 6 (count them 6!) programs to get done what he needs/wants to. Never mind the post-proccessing with After Effects/Photoshop/Flash/Name-your-favorite-here. Check out the workflows at ANY of the 'pro' animation/3D houses out there... they ALL use multiple programs, sometimes writing their own, to get the job done. Talk about a 'standard of the industry'! NO software will be all things to all people. If they were, then we would all be clones instead of people. ;) AND... for the record... I 3rd the 'Jeepers Crimminy!' We ALL know how you feel about Carrara... so why don't you just leave us alone about it? Hmmmmm? (This has been a public service announcment.) :D

Bluetone: I am one of the super-users in my opinion. I have some high end apps too and I hate to use them for different needs. I changed my nick sometimes and old folks might not know me. I have been here more than 6 years. I am not heavy posters like others. I have been so busy with my life and projects. Yep I am Jeepers Crimminy :D Thanks for the sympathy on problems with Carrara. Sometimes it is healthy to put coals together and closer to make it hotter to get warmer for us. Adobe is just other app for different purpose unlike the basic essential tools I requested to implement for Carrara. Symmetry is one of the basic essential tools for modeling because everything in world is symmetrical. Who likes to hit shift key on every polygons? Hands up, anyone?

Kool renderer. I noticed that the stripes is rotated, any idea how it did that?

I will take the edge and surface tools in the Pro version over built in symmetry any day. I have used Lightwave for 7 years now, we are just getting edges. I believe Carrara is quickly gaining ground on the big boys. Will it ever supplant them? Probably not. But it is a great package for the money. Less so now considering the drop in price for other apps, but still a lot of bang for the buck. Of course my needs are completely different than the next person. Carrara has some great output as far as rendering goes. The animation tools are nowhere near as complete as my "other" app. However, the majority of my work is either logo work for commercials or instructional type work for products. Carrara is superb for these. But I could never learn to like the modeler. With these added features I am ready to jump back in. I can import my LW objects now. I could have in C4 Pro, but this upgrade makes more sense to me than C4 Pro did to me last year. I am sorry that "your" most wanted feature didnt make it in. I have some features that I would like to see implemented as well. Such as builtin texture coordinates without having to resort to a plugin. This would allow easy animated procedural textures, which are very powerful. I use them in my "other" app all the time. The way I see it is you have two choices. Either accept that symmetry is not there or go with a different product. You mention high end apps, perhaps that would be the best way to go. Obviously Eovia didnt think symmetry was important enough to warrant being included with Carrara. But if the feature is that important to you, I would suggest looking elsewhere for now. I can say this. The choices available now are mind bending when you look at the way things were just a few years ago. It is an embarassment of riches so to speak. Never before has so much power been accesible by so many. Not just in Carrara but in all 3D apps. All at a cost far less than what it used to be. I started with Infini-D and Strata. To think how far 3D has come in just 10 years. We all have to make choices. You need to decide if Carrara's other strengths are enough for you to buy the upgrade. For me they are. I sat out last year. But this year it is a no brainer. One job will pay for the cost many times over. But if I wasnt satisfied with the upgrade and what I thought it should include, well I wouldnt buy it. Plain and simple. At the same time I would not spend time complaining about the product not having such and such feature. Because there are too many choices out there and I am not locked in to any company. If I were a hobbyist perhaps my thinking would be different. Of course using Lightwave I guess the question is why Carrara? Well, for me Carrara's GI solution works great. I also do architectural renderings on a regular basis. LW has GI as welll obviously. But Carrara to me seems much quicker. LW uses either interpolated background or Monte Carlo which is very slow. Photon mapping seems to me a better solution. Other than that, well I have to say that I like smaller companies. I saw in the beta last year Eovia's willingness to listen to customers. That means a lot. I realise that they havent listened to you, dont know what to say there. But imagine this. In Lightwave there is one, yes one undo in Layout. But in Modeler they are limited by memory only. So if you think Eovia is bad about not listening to customers, you might think about that. We have asked for years for multiple undo's. Alright, off the soapbox now. Good luck in your decision.

Well spoken, dbigers.

Actually, I rotated the scene to offer a view of the 3D shadow generating slats. The render was true to light physics -- the stripes are correctly oriented to the slats. A bit of optical illusion -- I guess? :)

dbigers: "It is an embarrassment of riches so to speak." You may consider me as one of the riches. The products I have was for my investment and that is the way of life making money. I can't live with just a milk and bread. I considered Carrara as a good product and want to invest my time on it rather than spend my time on other apps. No doubt that everyone likes Carrara's interface. I may like it and I do not need derogatory comments from users about what apps I should use because it crosses my boundary. Modeling rooms are included in Carrara and it really need basic essential tools for me to be able to use Carrara more than my other apps. It is absolutely no excuse for Eovia not to include symmetry in VM room, it is really simple and essential tool for modeling. They are using forks behind our back to buy Carrara 5 with useless modeling room. LCBoliou: Goood to know that it uses light physics!! :)

GWeb: Umm...I think maybe you misinterpreted dbiger's theme? No single application holds the key to some ultimate door of the 3D world. This latest incarnation of Carrara is excellent. However, I also use Vue5I, Ts 6.6, Poser 5 & 6, & Bryce -- not to mention a few 2D applications. Eovia targets Carrara Pro as an all-around 3D app, and it is possibly the best 3D app for general use for the $$, but? For example, I use a plug-in in one of my other apps that generates a very cool noise for meshes. I can make really realistic distressed objects (like old lumber) with this plug-in. The noise plug-in that comes with Carrara just cant equal this effect. Perhaps the new displacement ability within C5Pro can do this, but so far my tests have not borne this out? If Eovia added all the features of Hexagon into Carrara, then Carraras modeling complexity maybe turns off a lot of folks looking for that general use category. Also, the modeling focused folks lose Hexagon, since Eovia now would have little use for supporting a redundant set of complex code. I personally think Carrara5 Pro is pushing into the big-boys territory, and will cause prices to fall a bit more in that professional application area. All this is good for us!

I hold Eovia responsible for not including Symmetry in Carrara modeling room!! :P

Not sure if that was directed at me, but my post was not meant to be derogatory. If it appears that way I apologise. All I am saying is that if it is a deal breaker for you by not having symmetry then your time would be best put to use on other apps since it doesnt appear that it will. I am sorry if that sounds derogatory. It is not meant to be that way. I am looking at it from a standpoint of time and money, both of which are important to all of us. If there is a feature that I find absolutely critical and it isnt in a particular app, I will buy something else(money), or determine if there are ways to work around(time). I hope it is clear that I am not criticising the fact that you consider Symmetry to be important. Each of us are different and have our own desires. I am simply saying that it appears from the beta testers and Eovia themselves that it isnt going to be in Carrara and that the only decision now is to stay with Carrara and hope for the next version or get something else. It is an important decision I am sure. Learning new software is rarely fun. As before, best of luck.

dbigers: I always try not to be direct to anyone here. So in my opinion Carrara with the price is not deal breaker. Import and export is the most painful for serious animators who may have many models. It takes up spaces on hard driver, time consuming to make file names, browse for specific objs to import into scene, and import compatibility. That is a real problem with Carrara that it do not have simple symmetry tool for modeling users to be able to make everything in the scene. It is hard to compare pros and cons with import/export and shift key for symmetry. Frankly Eovia know how to make symmetry, so it is absoltely no excuse for them not to implement it in Carrara VM room. I am not looking into Hexagon or other apps because I considers it waste of time to do with import and export process.

I want to add something for u guys to look at 1) Make a complete symmetry model export it into object with a file name. 2) Import symmetry model, make some detail work on it, export it into obj again with new file name. 3) Import the obj back in and make animation with it. Do you have any idea how much time it would take for those process on every model? Do you know how long it would take if a obj file have more than a million polygons? OUCH!

LOL!!

Hey Carrara 5 beta testers:

Can you apply little aura with SSS or transcluent?

Is 3D Aura improved in anyway?

Do Carrara5 have new Aura node in shader room instead of using glow shader? (this is important part because glow can be very distrubing when applying aura on)

Is photon function implemented with Aura effect? (like glow but absent of it on the map for better shader control)

Message edited on: 11/02/2005 15:43