o.k., o.k., I'll see about working on the shirt thingy...and I'll see what I can do about the tattoo...I think I'm going to leave him alone for a little bit though...after he used Secret (PH balanced for a woman but strong enough for a man...) well, he's had some other issues since then...so he needs some rest... just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for all the helpful hints though! My other vertex model is coming along...slowly, but surely! rockjockjared