"so frankly to blithely suggest that those who use other, better implemented, render environments are not trying hard enough to acheive their ends with poser alone because "tools dont matter" is just silly myopic E/F evangelism." blithely assuming I'm evangelizing and that I'm saying you don't have the skills isn't reality either. No dis, unless you had a need to read one in there. Nowhere did I say that tools were worse than others or better than others. You seem to have missed that. It was you who said so. I disagreed. To "like it or not" requires a level of subjective preference. Which indicates that it is not a unifrom reality, but a subjective one, dependent on factors surrounding the individual. Which doesn't make it a reality, unless your reality is subjective. A superior tool often makes things easier to do. That doesn't mean it is a better tools. Superiority, itself, is a subjective measurement -- there is no absolute standards for superiority, only socially accepted norms. all of which is irrelevant -- your example was bad, and ya gotta admit I got ya there. ;) Your point, though, was also invalid, as it relies on a subjective set of requirements that will depend on thw situation and needs of the task. The right tool isn't always the same one in the same situtation for different people. To be the right tool, a lot of other factors are involved. TO use your analogy, there are some professional golfers (mickleson comes to mind) who tend to make some really strange club choices. THis isn't becuase the club, in and of itself, is any better or worse, but because they have the ability to use it better. Nor did I impugn your particular skills. I noted that while I can get the results you cannot in Poser, if I were to switch to C4D, i'd get results similar to the ones you get in Poser. But then, I use poser from a different POV than most, and use a lot of odd little tricks and such that are custom to my methodology and workflow. If someone else were to use them, they'd likely wind up frustrated unless they sahred my particular habits and approach to the task. The same applies to you. Which, ultimately, is why I called ya on your statement. Poser is only a tool. It is the knoweldge, skills, talents, approach, needs, quirks, and situation of the user that determines its value to the task. Incidentally, I used poser last week for a DVD which featured a four minute segment featuring 3 Jessi's, 2 James, 2 Stephanie, 1 Mike, and 2 Aiko's, dynamic hair and cloth, additional mechancial figures, and an "immersive outdoor environment" that I created specifically for poser. Render time was right around 3 minutes per frame (plus or minus 30 to 45 seconds), uncompressed. On a 500MHZ system with 512MB of RAM and an on board intel video chipset famed for being a POS. A limitation isn't the same an incapability. The main difference is that I've spent a lot of time learning what poser can and cannot do, and when it can't do something, I find a way to do it. dammit. I burnt my pies.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)