Keith, I understand what you're saying. You and all the long-time fractalers 'have' set the bar. I have downloaded lots of the long-timer's images from the db over this past year. It has taught me a lot about learning curves, and the process that you all have gone through to bring this art to its current state. Having been fractaling for only a year now, I and all the others who have begun in more recent years stand on the shoulders of you began long before us. You have all, already set the bar for us because we can see what is possible, with the result and the good fortune that we don't have to start at exactly the same spot that you folks did. Looking at images in the db also illustrated to me that people have certain formulas and ways of exploring, etc., that they use repeatedly. Not good, if one desires to thwart stagnation. Good, if one's primary desire is to get a satisfactory image with minimal effort. We all seem to settle into a personal comfort zone. Fortunately for me, I'm an eclectic and am easily bored - my greatest artistic assets. lol But, what my images will look like in six months or six years is anybody's guess. I'm thinking of the man who did the 'z' version of apo and who is now a part of the apo development team. There will be more like him, because whenever a person begins to feel contricted/restricted by the functions of the software, and can write code, new versions or entirely new programs will appear. Some versions will be tweaks, some will seemingly push apo (or other program) off the edge of the cliff. At least, it will seem like that to some. Then, new lists will start for the new versions, and the 'APO - the Original' group and the 'APO - the Interloper' group will typographically fly the bird back and forth at each other, until they get to the point of some semblance of peaceful or semi-peaceful co-existence. lol The name of the program doesn't matter - people will be people. As far as getting the art 'out there', there's nothing stopping any of us from doing just that. Perhaps the logjam for now might be if there's a mindset that dictates that we can only sell art as wall-hanging prints. What about cards, calendars, clothing, textile design, jewelry design. How many greeting cards do fractal artists send to their friends? Can we invent reasons to send them? Would it be possible to contact publishers, etc., ourselves to introduce the possibility of consideration in using our images? How about some who are so inclined to self publish and do our own illustrations? My mobius images gave me that idea because it seemed that a story was beginning to weave its way through and with the images, particularly when I found the 'eye of mobius' and the 'king of mobius'. (Haven't uploaded them.) I'm also thinking about textile design (I like fabrics and sewing). These are just a few ideas, I'm sure others will/do have more. It just seems to me that if we want the art out there and to be seen, then it's most likely going to have to come from us, whether as gifts or donations or - whatever - is only limited by our own individual selves. One more thing and then I'll shut up. I doubt very seriously that anyone who is exploring fractal art would see only one program's creations as the 'standard.' A google search for fractal art or fractal galleries would make that worry bite the dust in a hurry. :) That's all for this personally windy afternoon, :) Stephanie PS Afterglo might be a possible title for #3 of the getting there series. 0:) PPS Stephanie has now 'left' the building...lol