As Keith says, anything is art if someone thinks it is ... But really, there is one more element that hasn't been mentioned here, and it should. And that is, art provokes something within the observer, a feeling maybe, or an emotion, or some thoughtfulness, or a sense of "Wow, how beautiful!" The thing is, if there was a beautiful sunset every night we all would eventually stop getting that "Wow" feeling when we saw one. So it is with Apo flames, and spirals and so many other things that seem hackneyed after too much exposure. I can recall not too long ago the first few flames I saved feeling they were treasures. Now looking at them they seem common (well, most of them anyway). That's why artists need to move on to new things. But are they art? Of course. Are they worthy of hanging on my wall? Some of them for sure. Are they crap? Crap is in the eye of the beholder. Is this a good discussion to have? Damn right it is. In fact, it probably is the best discussion to have. So long as we can refrain from insulting each other, or shamelessly promoting ourselves. One other thing, the amount of skill required to make an artwork does indeed enter into the equation. Picking up a beautiful seashell and hanging it on the wall surely makes for a nice decoration. But inlaying that seashell into a table top or a guitar fretboard impresses me a lot more. Stepping down from the soapbox now. Happy holidays everybody. Tim