Dirk, that was a thoughful and well written post, and I thank you for contributing so elequently to this discussion. I whole heartedly agree with your call for artists to advance their skill levels and technical understanding of the fractal medium. I've heard some musicians that blow "any note without any structure" and it's not a pretty sound. Here at Rendo, and anywhere for that matter, there are serious artist (and serious emerging artists) and there are hobbyists, which includes many who 'do fractals' for the therapeutic relaxation as well as those here mainly for the social interaction. Your message must be targeted mainly at those of us who are serious about fractal art. And good on ya for that mate. In other words, we can first exclude those who are primarily hobbyists from any moral obligation to improve themselves (they certainly can if they want) and share this site with them because it is their's as much as it is anyone's. But there is a danger that in trying to become more skillful and technically competent the artist can become too high minded and even snobbish, and turn away from inspiration at a more basic, human level. I believe that with fractals, because physical skill it not really an issue, this danger is even greater than with other media. So my first point here is a warning really. Inspiration is what makes good art. Couple that with skills and knowledge and the magic begins. But without inspiration one has very little. My second point is just a musing, I suppose in response to your "fractaltrain" analogy. For me the number of formulas and their parameters in UF alone are bewildering. And the number is growing all the time. From my limited capacity anything over twenty is an infinite amount, no, a chaotic amount. I think I can safely say that I will never understand them all completely, not even half of them. And furthermore, do I want to? Should I want to? I don't think so. It's not a religious thing. At this point in time I don't believe that fractals can be 'controlled' in the same way that, for instance, paint can be controlled. It's a whole new medium, not just a minor change to a conventional one. In this sense conventional art-skills and rules don't always apply. And I can live with that. Tim