I don't know what other people do... but I find magnets very difficult to place, size and use to create the correct deformity! What are the tricks?

Dr Geep has a good tut for mags to learn how they work. Search here for Dr Geep and I am sure you will get the information.

Attached Link: http://www.morphography.uk.vu/magnets1.html

My tip is: don't place or size the magnet. I never do. Set the element display property for the magnet and base to outline so they don't get in the way. Forget the magnet analogy altogether, in fact. All you need the magnet itself for is to control the eventual deformation of the mesh, and all you need the mag base for is so you can save and/or delete the thing when you've finished with it. The thing to concentrate on is the mag zone - that's what determines the magnet's sphere of influence (literally). Get that positioned correctly, and scaled correctly, and you're most of the way there. I often set the zone's display property to wireframe so I can see it easier.

Here are links to Dr. Geeps tutorials: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2063281 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2096208 http://www.ebonshire.net/tut-geep/index.php

My tip is that if you have the money buy Universal Magic Magnets by William_the_Bloody... it is much better and easier then you would realize from the promo. Very outstanding. Total blessing to people using magnets. Removes the nasty Poser magnets interface for one... and the Poser UI magnet analogy that I don't think works at all. The biggest change is that it hides the three elements of the Poser magnet system so that you have one control for a full magnet set. A mirror set up is controlled from the same controller and it can be symmetric or asymmetric. Big help but set up only for anthropomorphic figures.

...and all you need the mag base for is so you can save and/or delete the thing when you've finished with it. That's not entirely true... position and orientation of the Magnet Base determines a couple of things, including: - It's position determines from 'where' scaling and translation takes place. - It's orientation determines the 'direction' translations and scaling take place, as well as the center of rotation if you apply rotations using the magnet. ...so, just as an example, let's assume you want to create a theoretical "Pregnant" type morph and that you've attatched a magnet to the abdomen of the figure. You'd probably also want the magnet to affect the 'hip' (and possibly the 'chest' and possibly even both of the 'buttocks'). If you want the magnet to also affect other body parts (aside from the part you connected the magnet to), you click on the magnet (not the base, not the zone), switch to it's properties and click on "Add Element to Deform". Do that once for each body part that the magnet needs to affect. But for example purposes, let's just assume it only needs to affect the abdomen, or that you've already done those steps... Now, when you first add the magnet, it's mostly centered on the selected body part, and roughly scaled to the size of the part. Let's see how the magnet Base affects the results... As EB mentions above, usually the very first thing I do is select the Magnet Zone and change it to wireframe ("Display/Element Style/Wireframe" menu). Now it's easier to see what parts of the model the magnet is going to affect - the Center of that sphere gets the Strongest effect from the magnet and the effect tapers off out towards the outsides of that spherical zone (you can make the Zone non-spherical by scaling it in one direction or the other). For now, just scale the Zone up large enough so that it covers most of the belly, but don't move it. At this point, if you look from the side, you'll see that the Zone not only covers the belly, but also the small of the back of the model. If you were actually creating a "Pregnant" morph, you'd want to move the zone forward, so it didn't affect her back, but let's leave it where it is for now. Ok, next, let's play with the magnet Base a bit. Since you added it to the abdomen, the Base and Magnet parts might actually be hidden inside the model... one thing you could do to make it easier to grab would be to select the Base and Scale it up. This also scales the Magnet prop up. Since we're making a Pregnant morph, we need to bulge the belly outward. There's a couple ways to do this, so let's play around with a few ideas. Next: - Select the Magnet itself (not the base, not the zone). - Adjust the zScale to 150-200%. ...ok, now the belly is indeed bulged out, but if you look from the side, you'll see the the small of the back is also bulged out (d'oh! :)). Leave the Magnet how it is for now and let's play around with the Base a bit and take note of the affects... - move the Base back (negative zTran values) - move the Base forward - move it left and right - move it up and down ...note that when you moved it left/right/up/down, nothing happened, but when you moved it forward/backward, the affect of the magnet changed drastically. What you are doing is moving the "point from which scaling takes place". If the Base is in the center of the model, the polygons both in front of and behind it are scaled outward from the center. If you move that center behind the model, there are now ONLY polygons in front of the center, so they ALL move forward. Since our Magnet only had some zScale (front/back), moving the center left/right/up/down made no difference. Move the Base back to the center and let's try something else... - rotate the base back and forth on the x-axis (xRotate) - with it rotated (one way or the other), raise the Base up/down (yTran) and forward/backward (zTran). - how about rotating left/right (yRotate)? ...as you can see, moving the 'position' of the Base affects the "Center about which the magnet effects 'rotate'". Your magnet (and this explanation) is probably a mess by now :), so you might want to delete it and start over, but hopefully this helps explain how the Base might be used to achieve certain affects. Once you get a good grasp of this, you can greatly simplify some tasks that are nearly impossible (or at least much tougher) to achieve if you just leave the Base alone. For example, what if you want to make a bulge at a 45deg angle? What I would do would be to rotate the magnet Base 45 deg (say yRotate) and then just zScale or zTran (depending on the situation) on the Magnet in the new/desired direction (some of this would be easier to illustrate with images, but I don't have any handy right now). In fact, I do this ALL the time when using magnets. I rotate the Base so that the front of the Magnet points in the z-direction of the direction I want the major bulge to go. That might be towards one side or the other and/or more towards up or down. This is particularly handy when trying to get a bulge in some clothing item to cover up some skin poke-through... rotate the Base around so that it's pointing in as close to the exact same z-direction as the bulge of the skin poking out as possible, then just bump up the zScale (or zTran, depending) until the skin is covered. Anyway, sorry for rambling.. I get carried away sometimes :). - Keith

THe best thing to use with magnets is Traveller's TargoMag. Turns the zone into a cross hairs. It's so much simpler to work with. And Keith has got it right. The base does count towards deformation. Having worked with them for years Id have to say magnets are bloody brilliant. I routinely convert clothing over from one figure to another using just magnets. Commercial quality conversions. Don't go out and buy a magnet set (at least not yet unless you need it specifically for something). Get in there and use them. The best way to learn about something is to get in there and use it. Then, if you either can't learn them, or want to learn more, or want more power, go look around at the magnet sets available and see if you can find what suits your needs.

Having worked with them for years Id have to say magnets are bloody brilliant. I agree... I often wish I had Poser Magnets in my otherwise expensive and versatile 3D modelling app (seriously). Once you get the hang of them, they're just 'bloody brilliant' for lots of applications/tasks :).

There's something to be said for learning a quirky interface through extended effort, but IMO the Poser magnet metaphor/interface is so funky, I'd rather spend the time using a better tool. Whether you want to spend the money is another matter but if you do a lot of modifications then it's probably worth it to buy something like Blacksmith 3d which looks like it is much better at the task. I think there is still a free version of Morph Master and while it has a somewhat unusual interface itself, I think it's better than magnets, at least for some jobs.

While Daz Studio's DForm tool copies Poser's tripartate gizmo design, it improves things quite a whole lot by hilighting the vertices that will be deformed and using color, IIRC, to show the degree/strength of the effect. The latest version of DS has some capabilities to export things so that they can be used in Poser but I don't know if that will apply to DFormed things. If it does, I may start using DS for my "magnet" work.

I should add, I don't disagree with the notion that Poser's magnets are a great feaure. I just think that the implementation leaves a lot to be desired and that is witnessed by how little used they are by many people. Of course, like anything else, there are always some folks who get the zen of a particular thing immediately.

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 16:13

Using magnets is not easy in the beginning but it's a fun when you know what effects what. It's like the difference of driving a Caprice (very easy and comfortable) and a Ferrari (not really easy but a lot of fun when you learned how to operate).

Spanki (and Xena), thanks for the clarification. All I can say is that so far I've been able to do everything I wanted to do with magnets without ever touching the base. I daresay that you could set me a modelling challenge that I wouldn't be able to accomplish without adjusting the base; but so far I haven't wanted to do whatever that would be. Maybe I'm just not very demanding. :) However for me, it was realising that I didn't have to fiddle with positioning the base that enabled me to make the leap from magnetophobe to magnetophile. I also use magnets routinely as part of my modelling workflow. My (admittedly free and probably less versatile) modeller scales the selection and doesn't scale the rest, and it's well worth an extra export / import step to get the advantage of those fall-off zones.

Righto - you CAN do most things without touching the base, but it can really help, once you master that as well. In the 'bulge out at a 45 deg angle' example from above, without re-orienting the Base, you'd probably zTran a little, then xTran a little, back and forth, until you got the bulge out where you wanted it, more or less. If you rotate the entire operation to point in the right direction, you simply zTran (and actually get a more 'correct' bulge, in the process, though the differences may not be noticable or worth mentioning). It just helps me to envision what needs to be done, when the magnet rig is aligned with the major direction I need to make the bulge. Then I can think in terms of "ok, I need to pull this part of the clothing 'out' at this angle" instead of "I need to pull it out some, to the left some and down some", to accomplish the same amount of displacement. But - if you've come up with a methodology that works for you - go with it! :).

Thank you for your comments... but wow! This gets over my head fast! I've been trying to adjust facial features... more recessed stuff OTHER than a nose, chin or ear! It gets very difficult to figure out the boundaries of what's going to be pulled out. And very difficult to fine tune. Bill

Keith, that is the first lucid explanation of the base element I have read. Thank you. I have "tilted" the base for things like noses but I dislike how that throws of the translations, z becomes y and then I am all mixed up. I am buying a new machine and I am very anxious to see if the video card will co-operate with Blacksmith since my current machine won't run it. billisfree, if you have ProPack or later check freestuff here for ockham's python scripts, MagCloner for symmetry, DeleteDeformer or DeleteMag for getting rid of magnets from a dialog box, Mag2Morph for saving deformations to morphs.

Bill, As Xena implies, there's only 2 things you need to know about magnets in order to master them: 1. practice 2. repeat step one :) ...on a more practical note, learning to crawl before you run is also useful. The head can be a tough thing to morph (because of the teeth, tongue and such hidden inside) without some more advanced techniques (limiting the morph influence to a defined grouping of polygons). But in general, I'd suggest that you: - Start by setting up the magnet Zone to display as a wireframe - Then turning some dial on the Magnet that you think is generally what you want to do (like a zTran to make a bulge). - Then select the magnet Zone and move it around, and/or scale it around until it's affecting the right set of points/polys. - At that point, you can go back to the Magnet controlls and fine-tune your adjustments. Once you get the hang of that, you can start thinking about how the direction of the whole Magnet prop/rig (defined/controlled by adjusting the Base) affects the outcome. Have fun! - Keith

I have "tilted" the base for things like noses but I dislike how that throws of the translations, z becomes y and then I am all mixed up... Once you start re-orienting the magnet Base, you need to forget about the world-based xyz orientation and start thinking in terms of the Base's orientation... so moving the Magnet in the 'z' direction, always moves things in/out from the Base. Moving the Magnet on the 'y' axis, always moves things in the direction that the top of the curved Magnet 'stands' on the Base. What I usually do is rotate the Base how I want it, then rotate the camera view round so that I'm looking squarely onto the face of the magnet again... now 'y' is Up/Down, 'x' is Left/Right and 'z' is Front/Back again. Does that help?

Indeed it does help :)

....maybe this will help :)... Think of the Magnet as a man standing on a platform and (ignoring gravity), now tilt the plaform and have the man jump 'up'. He's going to jump 'up' from the tilted platform, in the new tilted direction. If you spin the platform around (on the 'y' axis) and tell him to take a step to the 'left', he's going to step to HIS left, along the newly rotated platform, etc.

Very good. Thanks.

This magnet metaphor really does keep a lot of people from using the tool. A mesh distortion tool would have been a better interface such as with Photoshop Liquid, some sort of smudger brush or something. I was very disappointed when I got Poser 6 and found out I had missunderstood the Morph Putty tool. I had understood it as direct manipulation mesh not a means of playing with morphs... I wonder why it is the latter rather than the former.

MetaCuriousFront Ear are just crap at UI metaphors, that's all. Magnets don't behave like magnets, putty isn't infinitely malleable, Content Paradise is hell... :D billisfree, apologies for leading your topic down a needlessly technical path, but it was getting interesting. This is the first time anybody has refuted my magnet method. ;)

"I was very disappointed when I got Poser 6 and found out I had missunderstood the Morph Putty tool. I had understood it as direct manipulation mesh not a means of playing with morphs... I wonder why it is the latter rather than the former." momodot -- I'm sorry, but I read that and had to giggle. I also thought the same thing, until just before I started using it, and I was talking excitedly to someone and I typed the name out and then froze. Morph Putty. And at that exact moment, without even reading the manual, I knew exactly what id di and how it worked and what it was for. I aso realized I'd come to understand the inner thinking of the people at CL/EF/whatever. I cried for an hour or so at my lost innocence, then did total injections of all of Steph's morphs, and started tweaking the living hell out of her, lol It was horrifically ugly.

ynsaen, I have contemplated using magnets to make a morph set designed for no other purpose than to use with the Morph Putty, I never will I am sure though. I use too many different figures. Bill, there is a head tool from William_the_Bloody which is cheaper, I can't recommend these tools enough. They are utterly necessary for symmetrical face work. The key for the kind of work you want to do it controlling the zones. I often use zones that have weird scaling like x500% y50% z20% and the zone rotated on its axises. I also have used zones x-scaled to actually work both sides of the face at once, not need with the William_the_Bloody tools (BTW he offers product support). Something else you need to try is playing with the "fall off zone" it is set as a bell curve but you can get effects by making it flat or inverting it. pitklad has said he scales the figure up by 100x or even 1000x to work on it with magnets, it gives finer control (I imagine you would need to likewise adjust the body y-translation dial sensitivity to get the head down to the work zone. I on the other hand adjust the magnet dial sensitivities to very low numbers so I can do finer work. William_the_Bloody tools are preset very sensitive but occasionally I must adjust one or two of the dial sensitivity. I love Magnets, I just hate that interface. As you can tell I really love the William_the_Bloody tool. I used Traveler's targo-magnets in P4 but they did not work in P5 for me, I have not tried in P6. If you have PPP, P5 or P6 you might consider Ockham's freestuff Group2Morph (maybe listed as G2M)... it works beautifully though I don't love the part of making groups for it... it really is great for detail work. You make a group of target poly with the grouping tool say on the cheek, then you run the python and control translation and rotation and bulge using sliders having chosen a hard selection or soft selection. I really am waiting to try Blacksmith 3D if I get my new machine, that seems to have a great interface.

Thanks everybody for your responses... Looks like I better get a "Round tuit" and practice, practice, practice!!! After a year of using Poser I still have lot of unanswered questions. Bill

Attached Link: Morph World 3 Tutorials

One last thing, I don't think anyone give the link to Traveler's 4 mag tutorials: http://www.morphworld30.com/tutor.html :)

You can get Travellers TargoMag from that same site :) The way I position the zone and base .... position zone exactly as I want it (like Keith I rotate and whatnot to get it angled and positioned), Ctrl+C it, then select the base and Ctrl+V it so it is positioned exactly the same as the zone. If it's blocking my view of what I'm magging, I'll change the display to lines :)