okay, that's good information -- it's not a fatal defect in the hair engine, it's that I have not put in my dues with the damping settings (and there ARE damping settings, you can see them in my post above.) Will do so. Thanks for the feedback. Maxxmodels: "but I've rarely had to deal that kind of time anyway, even for highly realistic results" In otherwords, you can get this level of realism, on the hair, the shadows, the skin, etc., in well under 5 minutes? Well naturally, that renews my 3dsMax envy and horse-switching fever! Greg (or anyone), can you post an animation? Say, 120 frames, camera about the same distance from the face as mine, at 720x480, and provide the stats? Try to emulate the realism in shadows, skin and hair on the level of mine. Hair about the same length and style. That would provide me with a reality check. ::::: Opera :::::