"You need a reference for sizing and proportions and that comes from the mesh somehow (be it a mesh rendered to image planes or simply having the mesh in the editing environment). As such, clothing is ALWAYS a derivative of the mesh, even before joint parameters come into the equation."

Just to say something on this... that's not actually true. You can use your own arms or anything really for sizing and proportions. Clothing need not be modelled aorund the mesh (and sometimes it's better if it's not).

Of course, when it does come to the JPs, then... well... those JPs don't have to be derived from the figure, but they have to be derived from something derived form the figure, anyway.

The DAZ EULA thing is a bit goofy and we didn't really want to get into that, lets a whole can of cans of worms be opened up...

...like questions about how, if DAZ allows and encourages derived works provided they do not compete with the thing derived from, why couldn't Sixus have released that figure that took V3 maps? The mapping of the figure wouldn't have been derived from V3 -- that doesn't even really work without some software that hasn't been written yet [Dodger: "I know this, because I have worked out the algorithms to do figure-to-figure UVW projection, but I haven't figured out how to actually make it work yet, and I haven't seen any others else I probably wouldn't have worked it out"]

Exporting the template won't work really well because with the differences in the meshes, those seams won't always match right even if the lines fit pretty well. You can have a weird 'bend' right at the seam if you go about it that way.

Instead, to get the same mapping and make it work, the figure's UVs need to be derived from a TEXTURE. Sixus could have very simply pointed out that their figure's mapping was derived from the V3 Hi-Res textures -- hi res being necessary to ascertain those seams are as perfect as possible along every poly -- and that the use of their figure did not compete with the sales of the V3 hi-res textures, but rather enhanced those sales by making another figure that could wear them. Seeing as it doesn't contain any V3 in it, it shouldn't even be RTEncoded.

There are even worse questions, like if you use a certain mesh for a foot, are you ripping off V3 or The Dork or Don? (Look at the feet really closely). Like we said, that's neither here nor there.

But for making clothing, depending on what it is, sometimes it's better to make it for NO figure, then fit it to the fiture(s) you want to wear it. You know, just like most real clothing that doesn't come directly from a tailor or fashion designer.

In real life clothes aren't usually tailor-made. In poser they are. (And no, we don't mean that they are all crunchy and have weird looking stretched morphs -- not THAT kind of Tailor made). But they don't have to be, and often shouldn't.

Dodger is as guilty of modelling around a figure as the next, he admits it. However, that is changing since modelling things in ZBrush doesn't lend itself to that approach, but is more fun.

Also there are plenty of conversions out there that were not modelled around a Poser figure, or sometimes around any figure at all. Consider a few conversions of Stormtrooper Armour you may have seen around, many of which find their way back to places like scifi3d.theforce.net (you know, that place that insists you pitch their site in your image (rolls eyes) if you use things they didn't make, only host, and have no copyright on the content thereof anyway, since that's George Lucas's) -- modelled not as conformers, but as standalone figures. Those were certainly never meshed around a dummy of the Dork or Mike.

And make no mistake, the original post as NOT meant as DAZbashing. DAZ makes some really nice stuff.

The point is that it isn't the ONLY place that makes really nice stuff.

It's the same sort of argument as the basic idea that America may be a great, pretty much overall generally kinda free and diverse nation, but that doesn't mean that Australia is a fascistic racist dictatorship. (Dodger wants is to clarify that be believes that Australia, his favourite country, is more diverse and freer than the US, because it has tons of elbow room, lest anything be misinterpreted or misconstrued about the above -- Hell, One Nation was dissolved, so that evil dictatorship thing is not even a potential chance.)

Or to put it simpler, lots of people love hamburger meat (mince, ground beef, ground chuck, whatever). Hamburger is cheap. Hamburger Helper comes in boxes. Hamburger Helper has commercials. Hamburger Helper is easy to use to take your ground beef and turn it into a grammar school lunch that your dog won't even want to eat. Ground beef makes hamburgers. It makes Tacos. It makes sloppy joes. It makes Beef Strokin' off. It makes those weird hamburgerdog things at 7-11 with the cheese inside. It makes salivary steaks. It makes meatloaf. It makes meatballs. It makes vegetarians and Ghandi make faces. It's useful, diverse, easy to find, easy to use, easy to eat, and suffuses the western world.

But just because there are all these nice things to say about hamburger doesn't mean lamb chops with a nice cracked pepper cabernet sauce (or perhaps a mild mint jelly glaze), of which all the above CAN'T be said (except the part about vegetarians), aren't really freakin' good.

Damn I want some lamb chops.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 22:19

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.