I posted a Big Thank you yesterday, but i see it didn't take. Thaks for all the explanations - and bloodsong, you are right on about the bangs being zeroed. I think that is the problem. And nfredman - wow! a real hair magnet preset! I can't thank you all enough. Your replies probably helped a lot more people than me. When I get something recognizable I'll try to post it. maybe. Thanks again