thanks :) im modeling in an ancient version of Max, and Silo. ive heard good things about carrera, but i myself am keeping a considerable distance from any more ex-Meta programs... poser causes enough headaches for me as is. i find some things are still much quicker to do in NURBS, but then there are other things which took hours of hair-pulling frustration in rhino that can be done in seconds in sub-d. i think that for the average poser user it really doesnt matter what the merchant modeled the product in - because 95% of poser users just use the program for rendering stills: so shaving 30 seconds off your rendertime is nothing to write home about. ..but as scenes get more complex, and more figures and clothing are loaded, every little bit helps. anyone doing animation, or running anything but the highest-end machine, will definitely notice the difference between a 6,000 poly bra and a 90,000 poly one. creating the former also makes me 'feel' better, i guess. its hard to explain. i still like modeling high-poly clothing... but now the polys are justified. i can cram in a lot more detail than before and the mesh still comes out lighter and cleaner. i am not knocking rhino modelers - hell most of my store is modeled in rhino. but have always intended the next step to be for me to model figures, and that is something that is just not realistically possible in NURBS.