Rather late, and I quickstepped through a lot (the majority, in fact) of the intervening posts, but... "If you've been in a room with no windows and switched the light off, then you've 'seen' a totally dark shadow (you're in it). If you've ever looked into a deep cave then you've seen a totally dark shadow." No, you haven't. What you've seen (or not seen, however you want to term it) is the absence of light. Shadows can ONLY occur if there is a light source to cast them, and that light source must light something on which the shadow can fall. That's more-or-less the definition of a shadow: an object in the way of a light and blocking it. Without a light source, there are no shadows. There is just (total) darkness, which is a different matter altogether. I can do that easily in PSP: New document, fill with total black. All I need to do. Don't know about the rest of the discussion, just trying to clear up one invalid statement (no offence intended, it's just physics) Cheers, Diolma