I use apophysis without UF. I never really new that it was designed to be used with UF. I only found fractal art last August though. I think UF does get a lot of recognition in the fractal community. However, i also find that the artists are more professional, and present their art a lot better. I hope no apo users are offended by this. UF is much more commercially viable. It is no wonder that it is therefore more popular. It is up to us apo artists to create better art to change that. I see lots of camplaints about a lot of UF images being the same. Just the same old spiral. I think there are UF artists who need more creativity, and do something different. I hope no UF users are offended by this. But how is this different from apophysis? There are a lot of flames that have very little aestetic qualities to them posted here. Not much different from the random generated flames found on startup. Michael