Craig, This is the third time that I have had this discussion. Here's the scenario: I say something along the lines that flames are not the center of the universe, then someone comes along and says, "Oh really? Let me show you these flames" or "maybe these flames will change your mind". Then I get a URL or a list of flame artists that will enlighten me. I'm not sure how to react when that happens. In the past I have provided a list of my own flame compositions. It's flame envy time. My flames are bigger than yours are, and so on. I'm not going to do that this time, but I will say that you and I have different views on creativity. As far as your list goes, my favorite is twiggypeasticks. Keith