There's a trick I figured out for using the mouse in paint programs during my hiatus from the internet - if you're on Windows 98 onward you can use the native accesability options regarding the mouse, lift your mouse up so it doesn't move - (use a tin can or such so you don't have to hold te mouse up) and you can move the mouse using the numeric keyboard with full control and full functionality. Neat eh? so thanks all for the links . . . (mouse happy) 8:)