I never said that rigging couldn't be done [heh] only that Poser Artist didn't have a setup room. I've tried using spawn props and then putting stuff together in the heirachy editor but I have not have exactly complete luck in fifguring out exactly how to make it work right - I've used the idea of a Phi Builder [not sure if that is the program I have but whatever the name, I have something for working with PHI files] and I have had some success with that but mostly I use wordpad to edit cr2 files and stuff like that. I also have found that my over all success with the Joint Editor is only so-so ... it's hard to get streight info on using it - most things make generalised statements and then say something like "It's more an art then anything and you'll get the hang of it by doing it...." - best thing I've found [heck, only thing that really told me what I needed to know] was Dr Geep's tutorial on the topic. It's funny, some aspects of creating a character I have no problems with at all [and those are the parts one would expect to be hardest] and then other stuff I seem to have nothing BUT troubles ... and those seem to be the sort of things you would think should be easy. [heh]