Seen you guys and girls are on the topic of Xfrog...thought I chip in a bit. Mike...you might one to participate in the Xfrog contest now going on. There are two category 1) Natural and 2) Abstract. The prize is a permernant license and 180 tree library. I have the first volume and I tell you, they are the best I have seen and very competitive with that from Dosch Nature collection. The contest ends 31st March but have been extended to the 15th of April. You can download Xfrog 3.21 (very stable in Win 98) and create something...anything!..read the rules there, its very flexible. Varian - "clumsy, cumbersone, irritating and *nearly* requires a math degree to operate. It makes *excellent* trees and foliage, and also abstracts"... yes and no to your statement. Learning to control it and to specially design what you want out of it requires lots of practice. No maths is actually require...best to key in the values in the field box then to vary the slider....its hell of a "sensitive. a value of "0.01000" assign to whatever you are doing in the parameter editor makes quite a bit of changes. This program makes an excellent "Abstract" modelling tool beside trees and foilage. Gail (Siliver Branch did some nice work with it (check her site) and the best I like was her Jelly fish and crab. Just like her, I like to do things different with it. I have attached below clips of some stuff I model (Button Mushroom, Amphibious Jet Craft, Abstract Alien Plants) using Xfrog for the contest. Fox-M is right about the "XTune" and version 1 is just release and has a 30 days time out. No pricing at the moment. As for large xfr files, they are not that large depending on your creation. But once you export it as obj for Vue, its even larger. Saving the obj in Vue to vob helps reduce the file amd load much much faster. For best use, have the exported xfr file to obj converted to 3ds using one of the 3d converter and save it as vob again. Sorry for the Ot but Xfrog is interesting :)