just to agree with sparky8 - geep's tutorials are invaluable. p.s. billy - now you see what I mean about trolls, as I had used the dreaded term early in this thread. in the context of any forum related to poser, a troll is somebody who sez negative things about a poser render. right or wrong, they're feared by some to the point of irrationality, and there's often an attempt to incite a lynch mob to punish the troll for his attempt at exercising his freedom of speech :lol: