thanks, but the problem is lightwave 6.5 is only on sale for a little while and then the price goes back up to $2500 US. i can get max with a student discount but i cant find one for lightwave. these two programs seem to be in the niche that im interested in -- ones like raydream are too entry level and ones like maya and softimage are way too expensive. by the time my max demo cd arrives lightwave will probably be back to full price so ill be forced to buy max anyway.