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Subject: a scene... Mountain view


tom271 ( ) posted Wed, 29 November 2006 at 10:09 PM · edited Sun, 01 December 2024 at 3:10 AM

file_360961.jpg

can I have some feedback on this scene....   is it too dark..



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mboncher ( ) posted Wed, 29 November 2006 at 10:39 PM

Okay, I have what I hope is helpful constructive criticism.  I don't think your problem rests in it being too dark but I have a list of things that are popping out at me.  They may seem harsh, so if you want, let me know if you want a private email, or to let her rip in here if you want it.  Mind you, this is coming from what I would do with this image for my personal style, which is not neccessarily yours.  So any suggestions/criticism I have should be taken as such and/or rejected as such, and are in the interest of giving you options to make your art better from my point of view. :c)

mdb


wildman2 ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 1:17 AM

Your off to a great start.
Overall it don't seem too dark, maybe a little more green under the big tree.
Terrains in back ground look cool.
Got too many focus points, Eyes go all over image.Big tree looks real nice.Just need to work on the flow a little and it will be a great image.My 2 cents.

"Reinstall Windows" is NOT a troubleshooting step.


tom271 ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 5:22 AM · edited Thu, 30 November 2006 at 5:26 AM

*They may seem harsh, so if you want, let me know if you want a private email, or to let her rip in here if you want it.  Mind you, this is coming from what I would do with this image for my personal style, which is not neccessarily yours.

  • MBoncher:  first I don't need an introduction.  Whats with these warnings.. the kid gloves...   I don't get any of this..... I really don't..

If I wanted a private critic i would have e-mailed it to you in a secrete zip file with an encripted pasword.. 

second:  If you mean to rip me a new one....  please don't..   If you are going to critic my image constructively then yes.....   Tell me what you think...

@ Wildman2 :  thank you for your input....  It is a little non focused...



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MRIguy ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 5:58 AM

The lack of haze in the atmosphere make the mountain look as if it was just down the street from the tree and clearing. Think about it, in our real world, distant objects are colored/distorted by haze in the atmosphere. The crystal clear atmosphere of the image  gives one the impression that those distant mountains are just a few minutes walks from the tree.

Didn't you know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's why eyedrops and rose-colored glasses are needed.


tom271 ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 6:04 AM

*those distant mountains are just a few minutes walks from the tree.

*Yes I see thank you......  I do need some haze in there...  I have another image I'll post it later..



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mboncher ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 10:31 AM

You're right Tom, I shouldn't have done the kid glove treament.  I've had people in the past say they could take it when they asked me for criticism, and got offended when I finally did give criticism in what I thought was a constructive manner, so that's probably why I did what I did.  Here's what I came up with.

mdb

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First:  Your composition isn’t as strong as it could be.  You say Mountain View, but the central point is a squirrel on a tree with an owl landing next to it.  I’d remember the golden spiral and push this focal point off to one side more and make the mountain the center of your picture.  That being said, a mountain without its summit showing is anti-climactic somehow IMHO.  I don’t mind seeing it through branches, but having the trunk in the way is too much.

Second: Tree posing.  The squirrel’s tree is actually quite good for the Tree Lab, with the exception of the leaf bunches at the end.  Not sure how you have it set up in the Tree Lab, but this could require some minor editing to spread out the leaves or get rid of them entirely and make it a dead tree or something.  Your call on that.  The most serious problem I see is the flowering tree and the very symmetrical trees on the right hand side of the composition.  If they’re to be shrubs, drop the trunk into the ground and just have the branches sticking up.  Second, play with the Tree Lab to try and make the branches a lot more asymmetrical.  Add segments and all that jazz.  Lastly, unless you really feel the need for a flowering tree so jarringly out of place with the rest of the composition, you should look for a way to make it appear more natural in scene.  The best way I can think of is to get it out from under the squirrel tree.  Flowering trees don’t do well in shade like all fruit and nut bearing trees.

Third:  Good attempt at the grass, but it’s not quite working here.  You may want to fake the funk, smooth it and use the progressive “Foliage 2” procedural texture with no ambience to fake grass or small plants.  You may be better off though going with a layer of grass models close to the front and then using a flat terrain in the close mid ground instead of trying for lawn height grass.  Remember also that under trees, grass does horrible too, so you are more likely to have dirt under them than tall or even manicured grass.

Fourth:  Good news, your middle ground treeline beyond your clearing is excellent.  It feels like it has a good distance from you and has a good range of colors and variances in posing.  Bad news, that mountain is way too close.  You have no feeling of depth.  I’d push it waaaaaaay back and make it even bigger.  This does give you challenges with textures where you have to play with them to get them the right “frequency”, but it will make a huge difference in realism.  Case in point look at my pic “Lord of All He Surveys”.  Those mountain ranges are between 2000-5000 BU’s away!  The rolling hills with copses of trees on them are about 1000 BU’s away.  Now if you want to make your close mountain sort of a mid ground foothill and lower it’s top line like a close cliff, that’s one good way to do it too, then put the REAL mountain deep into the background you’ll notice a dramatic increase in the feel of space and tangibility of your image.  One of the biggest mistakes I see are people being afraid to push objects and terrains away to leave “empty space” between them and use forced perspective to make their appeal for scale.  That may work for Disney World where reality steps in and they have to do these tricks, but here, you shouldn’t rely on it.  The illusion is spotted quite easily.  Remember, they can only see what you show them, only you need to know the compositional dirty secrets. ;c)  Perception, not reality rules here.

Fifth:  A taste issue, but reeds and other water plants often grow tight to the shore.  It’s also a good way to hide an abrupt waterline created by Bryce, unless you have a good way to fake a believable muddy shoreline.  Oooh that just gave me an idea on how to pull one off…. Gonna have work on that.  A fallen down tree, rocks and logs are also great ways to give realism and hide too clean flaws.

Sixth:  Lastly a pet peeve which I think you’ve dodged but just something I always try to iterate:  Turn off the blasted Ambience! :c)  I’ve seen more pictures on R’osity ruined because someone left on their texture’s ambience.  Use fill lights, play with Photoshop, do anything else to make stuff pop out, but don’t use ambience unless you really must.  I may have it turned on in less than 10% of all textures I use.  It’s one of the first bits of advice anyone ever gave me, and one of the best to serve me.  So now, if you go through my gallery, you’ll almost never find a picture where you go “huh, that tree shouldn’t look like it’s glowing” or something similar.


CrazyDawg ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 11:01 AM · edited Thu, 30 November 2006 at 11:04 AM

tom i was going to make some comments on what you could do to better your image but everything i was going to say was said.

One thing i will say and please follow this to the last instruction. I was told this by a great artist on this site back in 2002. Follow everything you have been told and leave doing the haze work till the last, don't use to much haze or you might ruin a good image.

I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them.


 



TheBryster ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 1:39 PM
Forum Moderator

Stop pussyfooting around, Mboncher, and tell him what you think!

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster


And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...


mboncher ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 5:29 PM

Sowwy! :::pops out a trembling boo-boo lip and tears up:::  bad critic no art for you.!

;cP

;c)

mdb


tom271 ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 6:53 PM

That wasn't too bad was it?......   Thank you MBoncher  that was a good critic,,  hope you told it as it is.....;-)..       I will try and fallow much of what you said...  My original Idea was to be looking at a vista from underneath the tree line...    that is why the big tree was there...   I lost my vision soon after I added the animals...   I was not paying attention to my own work... 

@Crazydawg:  Thanks I think working and rendering with haze on takes longer so it is a good Idea to leave ti for last....



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mboncher ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 7:02 PM

Oh a tip on thin haze, use Volumetric light.  Set density to less than 20% and Quality to 4-7%.  Gives a great haze without killing your rendering times too badly or overwhelming the picture.  AND it's usually quite consistant throughout the image doing a lot of ambient like functions without giving the "glowing item" effect.

Dont' forget, you can use it from under the tree, but don't let branches obstruct what you really want to show.

mdb


tom271 ( ) posted Thu, 30 November 2006 at 9:58 PM · edited Thu, 30 November 2006 at 9:59 PM

file_361045.jpg

here is another one on the same vain,,,   is it better..  I did this one before the other one..

It is from the perpective being by the tree....



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