Oh, I hope you're not going to hold up the 68DD breasts as the high point of artistic expression
(because they're really, really damn heavy)

I think that the "large breast" is a completely different subject. I do not think the makers actually care for realism here.

Stahlratte's work is valuable to me, since I did not know why V3 looked strange to me. His findings are not a matter of taste, since what he found can be proved.

If you modify V3 or another model in a way that makes her more realistic is your choice. If you do a superheroine web comic, you might even scale her head smaller to make her look bigger. Your choice.  But if you  want to make realistic pictures, following his advices can help. In my opinion, of course.

Quote - @ David:  Too lazy to make you a picture.
Will a direct download of the magnets do instead ?  ;-)
@JOELGLAINE, pjz99, Khai, dalmatica and  mylemonblue : Many thanks for the support !
:-)
Stahlratte

Thank you Stahlratte, thnk you very much for the magnets.  I will put them to very good use.  Neja has definitely been the answer to the Eve 4 hip conundrum.
Yours truly,
David P. Hoadley
PS: Would you consider making an Evelyn with a 'V3 to V2' head and a Judy body?  I think that that would solve a lot of the V3 disproportion issue, and also shut up those who like to bad mouth Judy as 'Butt Ugly'.  Just a suggestion, as we know that time is priceless. ;=]

Quote - @**Tguyus : I kindly ask you to troll another thread with your unfounded drivel.

The charts and information offered here are based on centuries of scientific research.
I will not waste my time  trying to teach the willfully ignorant.
Nor will I give you a platform for self-expression.

I started this thread to educate.

If you feel the need to make DAZ aware of something, feel free to start your own thread.

If the trolling and underhanded personal attacks don´t stop, I´ll alert a mod and complain about you.

Thanks.

Stahlratte**

Well, that was not exactly a way to "kindly ask."  In fact, it was one of the more unkind requests I've seen lately.  Nevertheless, I will apologize, again but this time to you, for my intemperate use of the terms "realism police" and "realism evangelism" to which I assume you took offense. 

To be clear, I have not taken issue with your or others' substantive claims about real world human anatomical proportions.  My concern is that the thread's purpose seems to be more than simply "to educate."  After all, education always has a purpose and it is not unreasonable to interpret a potential purpose here as being advocacy for optimizing base meshes to meet certain needs or interests; particularly those of mesh users who want to create 3D models which match real life human forms, or at least what some here are characterizing as "ideal" (a highly normative term).  But optimizing meshes to meet someone's definition of "ideal" may have adverse consequences for other users, which is my central point.  Again, the prime example here is shin length and the problems I've faced dealing with shins of "realistic length".  If Daz is coaxed to alter their base figures to optimize for these "ideal" proportions, that could have further adverse effects on me and other modelers. 

Quote - Tguyus:

Quote - That means keeping enough polygons in those areas of Vicky's anatomy where significant changes in body proportions don't make the mesh break down or get too blocky.

And by the way no one has asked for polygons to be removed (why would ANYONE want that? wouldn't that would break all the skin UVMaps that are out there?)

I was thinking more about those Daz modelers, sitting in their offices tweaking the V4 mesh.  I'm assuming V4 will have a higher total poly count than prior Vickys, and that they must've had to decide where on her anatomy to ADD polygons and where not to.  They clearly can't add too many or the mesh becomes unwieldy.  So I'm assuming they have to make trade-offs between adding polygons to different body zones, with those choices being driven by their sense of how people want to morph the figure; ergo, the conflicting interests of advocates of realism versus fantasy.  And BTW, the existing Vickys do not have enough polys in certain areas, at least for my taste, so this is not simply an academic concern. 

HHHmmmm......

Perhaps we need two versions then.....

The glamourous Daz 'idealised' one and a modified 'realistic' one?

Klutz :0/

I do not think Stahlratte proposed any body shape as "ideal", that term came from the drawing reference he used.

Of course education has a purpose. But education is not brain washing.

If you like the DAZ meshes, fine. I seriously doubt that DAZ will start all over with it's models simply based on this thread. I'm sure DAZ knows exactly where they differ from reality. So probably, they will not change that.

Just my few cents.

Quote - HHHmmmm......

Perhaps we need two versions then.....

The glamourous Daz 'idealised' one and a modified 'realistic' one?

Klutz :0/

My point exactly in suggesting earlier that someone create a "Realistic Rhonda" (name copyright 2006 Tguyus ... hehe).  They could use all the proportional doctrines enunciated herein and everyone would be happy: both realism and fantasy modelers could have their optimized meshes.

Now, having said that, I believe there are areas where both sides can agree, such as head size.  All of my figures have their head scaled up to 105 percent or so, but I think that creates some unfortunate distortion in the mesh at the joint between the head and the upper neck.  So more polys there please!

@ Bopper
:lol:  Dude--that is so wrong on so many levels.  Funny as hell, just wrong,IMO. Nyahahahahh!

Quote - I do not think Stahlratte proposed any body shape as "ideal", that term came from the drawing reference he used.

Of course education has a purpose. But education is not brain washing.

If you like the DAZ meshes, fine. I seriously doubt that DAZ will start all over with it's models simply based on this thread. I'm sure DAZ knows exactly where they differ from reality. So probably, they will not change that.

Just my few cents.

And a very reasonable few cents, in my opinion.  But perhaps the tone for all this was set early in the thread with Stahlratte's rather harsh denunciations of V3; to wit:
**
" Sorry, but that statement is nonsense.  Yes, sounds harsh, sorry, but I´m soo fed up with these cop outs to justify that "everthing goes".

A 6' 3" Vicky monster doesn´t become "average" when you use the wrong camera settings.

If you WANT to picture a 6'3" tall Amazon, no problem with using Vicky as is.
But if you can´t be bothered creating correct replicas of reality first, don´t pretend that your renders are "realistic" in any shape or form.

You have the artistic freedom to do what you want in your renders, so feel free to create your own Bizarro world populated with unmodified V3´s and M3´s.**

The use of such pejorative language as "bizarro world populated with unmodified V3s" could be reasonably taken as harassment of those poor Daz modelers some of us hold in high esteem, even as we hope for ever-better meshes (with "better" in the eyes of the beholder).

@joelglaine:
Yes I know it's wrong, is  a cheap 5-minutes work, but I couldn't resisit it...

Well the final threads hit on what I was going to suggest. If you have to have the perfect proportion model, Make it. You said you make models to perfection. I'm sure from this thead you have your followers that will buy your product. DAZ and Efrontier, like everything else follows the money, They are not going to change their main mesh to make her more Ideal to the people who desire that look. They might sometime branch off and do that when the rigging can move the body parts more correctly  without distortions. but what's the use going that direction when their customers demand the Idealistic at this time and point. 

Until then, If you have to have everything  to your perfect porportions, your just going to have to do it yourself. There are programs out there that can make you happy and do it the way you like. Of course theres a much more complex learning curve and a lot more money to be spent. But hey!  go for it. If you look at the artwork that is done with the Mil figures, the largest percentage of the renders are fantasy based. They are not going away from there bread and butter. This is a buisness not a debate for them. I always say don't talk about it. Do it. 

I'm sure you have a good start with your followers. There is room for the perfect perportion girl. But number of sales is a whole new reality.  But if you make her the way she should be you will have her to work with for However you want to render her. And as a bonus, you can then sell her.

Looks like my sarcasm was unfortunately wasted, Tguyus.

As I already said, I won´t let one of my threads being hijacked by self important trolls.

Absolutely noone is interrested in your leg fetish, and your other remarks unfortunately show that despite the six years you are already here you don´t have the slightest clue about mesh geometry and rigging.

Rooting for "more polygons" because you are unable to edit a joint or learn to use a magnet while V3 already IS way heavier than necesary is laughable.
Yeah, right, I´m sure the modellers at DAZ will be more than happy to hear your advice.

"Umm, yeah, well, how about more polys in the legs, so I can make them, Umm, longer you know, yeah. That would be really, like, cool, you know."

ROTFLMAO.

You DO know that V3 has a default "stretch legs" morph, do you ?

For the record, I run a lot of my characters through Polytrans to bring their mesh density down to more reasonable sizes, or use low rez heads combined with high rez bodys.
That way my characters are between 20 000 and 40 000 polys instead of V3´s bloated 72 000 or MIKI´s ridiculous 115 000.

Fortunately DAZ finally had an epiphanie so V4 will obviously be availabe in HiRez, LoRez, and Super LoRez versions.
(To give credit where credit is due, V2LO, V3RR and M3RR are some of the best meshes around, even despite their flawed proportions)

Sorry folks, I posted two pages ago " .... you haven´t seen me rude yet."

NOW YOU HAVE, because STEELRAT is PISSED AND HE GIVES A  RATS ASS !

When I work for hours in Poser to share knowledge with others,  noone will waltz in my thread and throw his weight around just to add to his post count.

The scientifical facts given by me in this thread are not up for debate, and noone is interrested in anyone elses sexual preferences.

Oh, and Slowhand, your post shows me that you haven´t the slightest clue what this thread was about.
Not everybody here constantly has $$$ blinking in from of his head.

I´m fully aware that DAZ, like any good "buisiness" is just catering to the lowest common denominator.

Having said that, I may or may not start a new thread where I repost my work that hopefully will be less troll infested.

Have a nice day everybody.

Stahlratte

Quote -

The use of such pejorative language as "bizarro world populated with unmodified V3s" could be reasonably taken as harassment of those poor Daz modelers some of us hold in high esteem, even as we hope for ever-better meshes (with "better" in the eyes of the beholder).

It is certainly true that Stahlratte uses a direct language, too drastic for my taste too. I hope the DAZ modelers take it as his point of view. Free speech should cover that.

On the other hand, imagine yourself between some real live Vickys. I am a big guy myself. A while ago we had a guy at work who is half a head larger than I am, that was a strange feeling. Now, running between a couple of gigantesses would be kind of bizarre for me.

I have to agree with most of what stahlratte said but the initial post of V3 has her scaling off. If you compare the heads they aren't the same size. She is supposed to be tall though. I think she was generally figured out to be 5'11" and that is what she was intended to be. Even though that isn't the average female height but more of a model/amazon proportion.

Q:'it's very simple you decide what you read and don't read.' to know what is in a thread Tguyus has to read it. reading it affects him. there is no undo for that. he can decide whether to react or not and this decision is his alone. Q:'@Tguyus : I kindly ask you to troll another thread with your unfounded drivel. The charts and information offered here are based on centuries of scientific research. I will not waste my time trying to teach the willfully ignorant. Nor will I give you a platform for self-expression. I started this thread to educate. If you feel the need to make DAZ aware of something, feel free to start your own thread. If the trolling and underhanded personal attacks dont stop, Ill alert a mod and complain about you. Thanks. Stahlratte' your comments t'wards those who oppose, doubt or simply do not understand you are impolite and imply insults. a kind of behaviour one would expect on some arrogant, self-complacent rich-kid, but not on a well-educated civilized adult - and definitely not on an 'Educator'. the tolerance you ask for is the very same you should be ready - and able! - to give. to be both rude and touchy is no good cocktail..... mamaderhaaaat.....plr!

I stand with Stahlratte.
David P. Hoadley

Well, well, well, look who had to show up again for some new snide remarks.

Hmm, when I was in school we were taught not to  talk back to the teacher and to ask politely when we didn´t understant something.
And if we were rude and disrupted the lesson we were simply thrown out of the room or worse.

:-)

Und Tschüß...

Stahlratte

Please, everybody, stop making that ugly. Rude remarks do neither help in explaining something nor do they help in denying something.

Ich geh mal in den Keller und schaue, ob ich das Niveau wieder hochlocken kann.....

Quote - Well, well, well, look who had to show up again for some new snide remarks.

Hmm, when I was in school we were taught not to  talk back to the teacher and to ask politely when we didn´t understant something.
And if we were rude and disrupted the lesson we were simply thrown out of the room or worse.

:-)

Und Tschüß...

Stahlratte

LOL!  Oh no, you did NOT really just say that did you?  Ha ha!  You are "the teacher" and those of us who raise concerns about the real world implications your "teachings" are simply "talking back" and deserve to be "thrown out of the room or worse"?  LOL

Quote - Well, well, well, look who had to show up again for some new snide remarks.

Hmm, when I was in school we were taught not to  talk back to the teacher and to ask politely when we didn´t understant something.
And if we were rude and disrupted the lesson we were simply thrown out of the room or worse.

:-)

Und Tschüß...

Stahlratte

BTW, if this thread gets locked now, it won't be because of anything besides your arrogance and hostile demeanor.  But I'll make a deal with you:  if you do start another thread, or do a replacement thread, which just focuses on the technical issues of body proportions --and you can do it without undue disparagement of people or their modeling work-- I'll stay out of "your" thread.

Funny, after more than 5 years and hundreds of posts here, I don't think I've ever gotten into an argument or exchanged unkind words with anyone else here.  But then, I guess I hadn't "met" Stahlratte until today.  My bad luck.

Never once did I smart mouth you, I disagree with the absoluteness of your openion. Not that you don't know what you are talking about. "Not having a clue."  Do you always through out your thoughts like that with people who have a different opinon with insults as you teach.

While dealing in the real world. Daz will not make a model perfect perportioned unless the public demands it. That is Reality. There is a reasons why  V3 is not the way you want her to be. As I said that doesn't make you wrong. It makes them cash because of public demand, and that you seem to want to bypass. There are more people here that use these figures for there purpose than just you. Unfortunalty you are unwilding for anything else to be discussed as to why that is. Because they are the lowest common denominator. Your words not mine.

Quote - You DO know that V3 has a default "stretch legs" morph, do you ?

Yes I did, but did YOU know the stretch legs morph lengthens BOTH the shin and the thigh?  So thanks for the hot tip, "Teacher", but some of us are already ahead of you on that part of the Poser learning curve.

Quote - Rooting for "more polygons" because you are unable to edit a joint or learn to use a magnet while V3 already IS way heavier than necesary is laughable.
Yeah, right, I´m sure the modellers at DAZ will be more than happy to hear your advice.

No, I am hoping for more polygons in certain body zones because the mesh density of existing figures is too low for MY modified V2 and V3 figures in those zones.  And unless you've morphed, posed, and rendered MY V2 and V3 figures, then you don't really have the foggiest idea whether the poly count is adequate in particular body zones or not.  The fact is that some of my figures end up requiring postwork to smooth out the edges on some renders because of noticable kinks caused by insufficient polygons.  In your arrogance, you simply ASSUMED I did not know how to use magnets or use the joint editor.  You seem to fancy yourself some kind of brahmin or teacher or guru, and yet you leap to conclusions without a scintilla of evidence.  That is demagoguery at its basest.

And no, the issue here is that I don't want the Daz modelers to be influenced by YOUR advice.  As an earlier poster suggested, why don't you just go build your own mesh?  If you're so skilled and knowledgable about body proportions, meshes, and rigging, I'm sure you could make a nice, realistically proportioned, well-rigged figure.  I'm wondering how many people would buy it though.  I know I wouldn't.

ok thats ENOUGH.

calling a Mod in to edit non relevant posts out and lock this as it was meant.

to teach.

take the flamewar outside.

Quote - ok thats ENOUGH.

calling a Mod in to edit non relevant posts out and lock this as it was meant.

to teach.

take the flamewar outside.

That's your opinion on whether this thread was about "teaching" or about advocating for changes to base figures in the marketplace.

Go ahead and call a Mod.  I'm not the one who needs adult supervision here.  All I've done is respond, primarily in a substantive manner, to the baseless insults levelled by Stahlratte.

At this point, I agree this thread should be locked due to lack of civility.  And my earlier offer stands: if Stahlratte wants to do a thread where he treats others and their work with appropriate respect and doesn't simply pretend his "teachings" have no real world implications which might affect others, I'll support it all the way.  I actually think the discussion about the technical aspects of body proportion is useful.  I simply object to you or him or anyone else saying discussion of what it might mean for mesh design in the real world is out of bounds.

stop it.

you are the one now provoking things. I suggest you just leave it alone.

Dear god, I can't believe that in the 8 hours I've been at work this has degenerated into name-calling, finger-waving macho chest-wrestling.

Before I lock this thread, let me leave you all with a thought: This is meant to be a discussion forum. Argument, dissension and disagreement are going to happen. Starting a thread doesn't mean that everyone who replies has to bow to your opinion; nor does posting to a thread mean an attempt to convert fellow readers (at swordpoint if necessary) to your counter-argument.

It's fine to disagree, but for goodness sake, express that disagreement in a mature and reasonable way!