Primal opened this issue on Oct 23, 2006 · 732 posts
CrimsonDesire posted Wed, 06 December 2006 at 9:55 PM
Okay, gonna try gonna try gonna try.
I looked long and hard at this render because I think it's important sometimes not just to go with an initial impression or feeling. You are asking for an age range. If you are asking in relation to general anime and what an artist might do to try to show a character as being in an adult range then yes, I would say that in terms of general body proptions yes, I'd have no problem with booting her into the adult age range.
Here's what I think is primarily throwing people: The lower half of her face. Body is fine, upper part of the head's fine, uniform top is not neccersarilly indictive of being young. Backround and the chibi character beside her, also take them out of the equation because THEY SHOULD MEAN NOTHING in terms of judging the character's apparent age.
Okay so here's what I did, I completly covered up her head first, and asked myself, just based on the body if I was asked to judge, as you are, if it belonged to a child or an adult, I'd say an adult. So that's the short answer on the body portion.
Next I took the head and hair. Hair is fine as is I think not really an deciding factor. So then I zeroed in on the face. Upper portion from the forhead to the bottem of the eyes is fine, I don't think there can be a age detraction made on that basis.
So the lower portion: This I see is the only potential problem area and judging by some of the reactions I'd guess that's probably what swayed alot of people in favor of an underage ruling despite the mature body, hair and upper head regions.
So let's take a look at that area shall we for potential problem areas. Okay to begin with the shape of the face is a very rounded one and the shadows reinforce it. Almost no definition to cheeks bone structure (sorry Cruzin I'm doing my best here, this isn't easy okay I don't like picking apart other people's work hopefully you'll see my intent) and the lips are very full and close to the nose, which is also quite pert. The chin also has a lack of definition.
None of these, in themselves would be a major point of age contention, I think, but when put all togeather the end result is that the lower part of her face has a somewhat underdeveloped effect which gives her overall face a kind of cheruby look to it, and is rings some of the classic indicators for some folks that she is potentially very young.
BUT and I'm just as sorry as heck about this but I can't agree with those who've decided that she must constitute a girl in her early to midteens. My ruling on this, which of course means not a fricking thing but it's still my dang voice and by gosh I'm going to use it, do you hear me?! I'm going to use it! Because the sadest part in this whole dang thing are the people that backed away when they got slapped in the face and now are silent or cower in fear of the "report" button.
Not me. What's right is right. No Cruzin, in my judgement, and it was not an easy one to make, while the render gives the viewer pause, it does not ultimatly in my opinion and despite it's handycaps constitute a underage girl, but rather a healthy and mature woman perhaps in her late teens to eary twenties but I'd have a real problem with agreeing to her being classed as younger then that.
Why? Show me a twelve or thirteen your old in a anime or manga of you're choice that's done with the same bodily proportions and general character structuring. Traditionally it's just not done. Realism doesan't really enter into it. Just because someone knew a girl back in highshool or junior high or whatever who had blah de blah blah has no real bearing on the matter in my view. We're not talking about real life, we are talking about a form of art.
Also I think the character's breast size is largely errelivant beyond the fact that she has proportions well in keeping with a fully (and exceptionally well endowed) adult. I applaude those who actually took time to look at some of the other factors in the body structure which are much better indicators.
Now in terms of westernized anime I'd maybe be willing to concead a somewhat broader age range, but certianly not to the lower extremes some have suggested. Sorry but in terms of the art form it just isn't done, not even in westernized anime.
So I really don't care if someone's entire junior high class looked like amazons or centerfolds, or if little suzy from down the street had breasts the size of basketballs before she was out of daipers. I really don't think that how well developed you or your children or your children's children were by the time they reached Jr. High is all that relevant. If we were talking about characters who were meant to be rendered in as real as style as the 3d medium allows such as V3 or M3 for example, then I might better understand the relevance of the cases sited. As it is, anime characters are not meant to be drawn or rendered in a wholly realistic manner, once again as I think I've said several times that completly defeats the purpose of the artform.
I think it took alot of courage for you Cruzin, to put a personal peice of artwork and a character you'd obviously put a fair amount of time into this thread for review, particullarly given the atmosphere. That, frankly, took guts. So thankyou for having the courage to try.
Oh, and if it were my render, I'd have things that I would have changed, but it's not. It's yours. So I'm going to refrain from making any suggestions as to how to appease anyone's perceptions with small changes to the work, because it's yours and your vision, and I respect that.
And dang it I'm going to say something else. It makes me especially upset when I read about artists who were banned in what I am going to now designate the "May purge" since I understand that's when alot of this started really happening as far as artists leaving or being banned, these same artists who are now working with artists still on the site to try and help them conform their work to the TOS and still mantain their artistic integrity. Heck, in my book that says alot about someone right there.
Now I understand that changes had to be made and blah de blah blah but for crying out. Well.. If I had my way about it, and I won't of course, but if I did, I'd take those cases and put them up for review. I'd talk with the artists off site in E-mails or whatever if they were willing to see if something could be worked out. Because I think it's the sadest thing in the world when people give up on other people at the very times when they need it most.
And ya, I've been around the net. And ya, I know how it is. And yes I've heard the arguement that nothing can be changed and that's just the way it is and nothing anyone can do or say will ever change that. And no, I haven't stopped and will never stop believing that when we really lose ourselves is when we loose the courage to try.