buddy, i don't think you are doing anything wrong here or are acting in an unprofessional manner. regardless of the age i think it would be prudent to remain professional, but firm.

if someone else was making money off of my freebies (and i think my freebies are definately worth some cash) then i too would be put out (said midly with sarcasm).

unfortunately, you are on a new roller coaster and we are riding with you (at least myself that is). i have no guidance to offer you other than try to collect a paper trail for possibly future proceedings. 
make quick and certain deadlines (for compliance assurance).
stay professional.

Well, they've removed the link for the mesh from their models page, but the direct URL still exists....and they have yet to provide me with the contact dat on the person who posted it.

It's a start.

If they dont remove your items entirely, you might need to send a C & D letter....that way they will know that things are about to get really serious, {or they should}...its a first step in legal action, and signifies you have done everything possible before you drop the bomb. ;)

I'll wait until midnight PST, then if they haven't responded I'll send an e-mail.

if they're using a fake name and address for their site registry, paypal and the website registry service should also be notified of the possibility of fraudulent activity in regard to the website. but now, before I buy anything from them (as with turbosquid), at least I know to check first to find out if it's available as a freebie elsewhere. in the meantime, anybody doing a search for es3d.com in either google or this website will get the whole sordid story. several years ago, when I first visited the site, I assumed the guy had difficulty communicating in english because he was located in some non-english-speaking country. it turned out i was right - he's located in california :lol:

Ah!  The California Schooling system......  Makes you so proud..... :P

I have had dealings with them, but not good a one. I bought the arabic buildings props.

You can't even rotate them, some of the models aren't finished and some of the textures are not good either.

I contacted them, but no response.

I will not be buying anything from them in the future.

Eromanric, you are acting completely professional.  I think you have a lot of support on this issue, not to mention precedence.  Anyone who watches newscasts like 60 Minutes has seen e-mails and letters from corporations displayed and quoted.

You're misadventure here has uncovered an ugly truth about this little company.  These people need to learn how to run an ethical, professional business.  They may have lots to offer (assuming not everything on their site is stolen), but they will not succeed with such an arrogant attitude.

I am glad this came to light.  I use much of my art for professional purposes and I need to be absolutely clear that what I am purchasing is legal for me to use.  I know there are others in the same boat.  This not only has warned me of a site I was intending to do business with, this has also smacked me upside the head and told me not to take everything for granted.  Sometimes I just trust the surface a bit too much, and if this had not come into the light, I could have ended up in some painful legal trouble down the road.

Imagine if I was working on an animated TV sequence and we bought your model from these people and used it on TV.  (Unlikely since, at least, they did note it was from a copyrighted movie), but let's say it wasn't, or let's say I purchased soem of their nift mocaps only to find they were not the true authors?

Now, let's say I was doing contract work for a Studio that needed a sequence done.

You can see how this could very quickly roll into a very ugly situation.

I have no tolerance for someone who will steal and jeapordize my lively -hood for their own ill-gotten gain!

I want to see this company go down or at least I want every single person to know of their questionable business practices.

You (and MrSparky) saved me some potential grief.  I now worry about others who are not active in forums.

libel, the written defamation of someone, is quite different from liable (or actionable), which is what they'd be if they continued the case...;) How ironic.

Quote - http://www.es3d.com/narcissuspage.htm
...can be obtained for free from here... 
http://www.lwg3d.org/v3/meshes.php?cat=35

The NARCISSUS models are not the same.  Try again.

Upon very close examination, I think Shonner is right.  The Engines on the lightwave model appear to be different, specifically the protruding vents.

But, i do not have both meshes to compare.

Hmmm..maybe, cant get a close enough shot off the first link...but isn't it odd that they are removing the mesh?..if it wasn't the same, why remove it?

No offence Shonner. I didn't say the 2 Narcissus model where the same thing. 
I wrote: "...can be obtained for free from here". 
Though apologies to anyone if I wasn't clear enough.  

The alien space jockey model is a direct rip though. And I stand by that statement.

If that store didn't sell stolen meshes this wouldn't be an issue. 
We'd be all doing the usual things like debating V4's beaver :)

Quote - Hmmm..maybe, cant get a close enough shot off the first link...but isn't it odd that they are removing the mesh?..if it wasn't the same, why remove it?

Because selling it is an infringement of a 20th Century Fox copyright. Like the "Aliens" stuff in the store on this site that's been mentioned in another thread.

It's Saturday afternoon, 17:10 GMT in the UK, and I can still click on a PayPal link to buy the Space Jockey. Is California in a different time continuum as well as a different time zone ?

Quote - Well they did finally respond....Not exactly what I expected, but at least they are pulling the mesh.

Quote -
Sir,We were made aware of the situation a couple of days ago from
a customer who purchased the item. That is a brokered item, and was submitted
by a visitor to our site.
 
That was the only sale that item made since it was submitted.
We will remove the item as soon as we are back in the office, which will be Thursday night
US pacific time. We are on the road on business and will not be able to
remove the item till then.

Regarding " I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting your actions."
We aslo have an attorney. A good one. If you engage in any activity or actions which damage our reputation or our ability to sell our products, you will be held financially responsible and liablefor said damages.

"If you do not I will be force to report this to your ISP, your web host and Paypal" Once again, I reiterate, any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving , and you will be sued for lible and damages. We make every reasonable attempt tp ensure that items submitted to us are original items  of the person submitting.

As stated, we will remove your mesh tomorrow night, as we are on the road on business. We dont want it, ot need it. We made no money on it.
We will send you the email address and contact information for the person who submitted it. You can threaten that person. Dont threaten us.
If we see so much as a single word in any venue, liabiling us or our website and we we sue you personally for damages

As was pointed out, they got the mesh from a third party.  Thanks for the support and suggestions

What exactly did you expect?  From your earlier post:

Quote - To resolve this issue I have:
1) Asked Eclipse Studios to remove the product from sale.  If they do not, they will be hearing from my attorney. 

1. They may post the mesh only if it is for free download. And if they wish to give the mesh away for free, then I expect them to post a notification stating that the original mesh was created by me.
2. I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

You went at them with guns blazing. Personally if someone sent me a letter like that I wouldn't exactly be nice and cordial in my reply back.

Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet.  Personally that wasn't very nice of you.  It also wasn't very nice to post their private correspondence to you here.

You accomplished your goal of having them remove the mesh from their site. What was the purpose of posting their reply to you other than to slander them and their reputation.

Sorry, but while I sympathize with the fact that you are upset about finding one of your meshes up for sale on their site, their reply to you was nothing less than you deserved given the way you approached them about the situation to begin with.

You get far better results with a tongue of honey vs one of flame, and you earn more friends and alies too.

Quote - Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet.  Personally that wasn't very nice of you.  It also wasn't very nice to post their private correspondence to you here.

It's only slander if it's not true. As a hypothetical example, if someone is convicted of a crime and I spread that fact all over the internet he might not like it, but he can't sue for slander/libel.

Conniekat8 and I have already posted about the publication of 'private' emails - which doesn't even apply here since this was clearly business correspondence. If you haven't read them read Connie's post - it's better than mine.

it's slander if spoken, libel if written. an e-mail is not a privileged communication, if any of the recent court cases are good precedent. however, there may be a reasonable expectation of privacy in regard to e-mails sent by "john smith" (if that's his real name) to his attorney, clients or doctor. hence it would be a breach of privacy if "john smith" released public information about the person who sold or purchased an item that was freely available elsewhere IMVHO. (I ain't a lawyer)

I'm sorry Acadia, I have to completely disagree with you.

The proper action when something like this occurs (a stolen item, be it your mesh, your photos, your art, whatever) is to send a Cease and Desist Letter.

What was sent was a step below that.

And, frankly, if someone comes at your business swearing and frothing at the mouth, but they are still right, then the only way to handle the situation is to be as polite and professional as possible.

Anyone who is told that their actions will be reported upon in a public medium should be on their best behaviour.

I do not know why you would insist on defending these guys.

**Do you think that running a business as John Smith from 1234 Smith St. is a good sign?

Do you think selling copyrighted material is a good sign?

Do you think that selling stolen Meshes is a good sign?

Do you think writing a sloppy threatening letter is a good sign?**

What exactly needs to be defended here, our right to be suckers!?

Quote - I'm sorry Acadia, I have to completely disagree with you.

That's ok. We can't always be in agreement with everyone. We are all individuals and each entitled to our own point of view.

Quote - I do not know why you would insist on defending these guys.

I'm defending no one. And I am on no one's side.

I'm simply advocating for treating people with some decency.

I found the initial way that ES were approached to be offensive and was pointing out to the person that if you go in with guns blazing, don't expect a polite reply back.  His initial contact was drastic and his tone hostile, for a first communication. I simply feel that the reply he got was because of the tone of the communication he sent.

I'm all for decency and politeness, but wheres it's deserved. 
But I'm with Throm here on this one. That mail was more than fair. 

Also consider the 1st post here, can that also be considered as morally unfair or unreasonable ?  

Acadia,
Have you ever seen a 'CEASE AND DESIST' order? I assure you that compared to those, he
WAS polite. 20th Century Fox would have sent a VERY blunt and threatening C&D and if they
had received a response like the one that was sent, they would have started the lawsuit without
further delay. When defending your intellectual property, you MUST go in with guns blazing.
Anne MecCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern) once posted on her board, that if intellectual property
isn't defended vigorously, you could possibly lose your copyright. It's why the big studios go 
after violators so quickly.

Greywolf

PS: 'John Smith'? '1234 Smith Street''?!  Please tell me you're joking!

Well, Monday morning, bright and early, I'm calling an old friend at 20th's legal dept.  I'm sure they will love knowing about "Keith B"'s use of their copyrighted material.

And, frankly, I don't think they are going to give one tiny s**t about his "right" to make a "loving."

(And, no, I'm not going to bother him with this over the weekend, and, yes, I do want an excuse to call and just chat .

Well, that was creepy.  I posted the above, and it posted about 12 times.  Had to go back and do a bunch of deleting.  

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, spooky.  ES3D must be listening in!!

Quote -
Anne MecCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern) once posted on her board, that if intellectual property
isn't defended vigorously, you could possibly lose your copyright.

No, that's trademark that you have to defend or risk losing it.
A copyright remains valid whether you defend it or not.

On copyright and trademarks, there are some nasty pitfalls around the setting for a series of works. If I recall correctly, Marion Zimmer Bradley got caught by that over her Darkover series. Copyright covers a specific work, such as "Amazon Queens of Poserworld". You need other methods to protect the idea of Poserworld. Yes, the address is weird. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm especially not competent in US or Californian law, but combined with the other elements it may be criminal--something like wire fraud. It would be possible to make life very unpleasant for this guy.

It's not about who's mean or nice, right or wrong.  It comes down to who has the best lawyer.

If it comes down to lawsuit, there is no contest when someone is so clearly in the wrong.

The es3d guy is no O.J. Simpson, so even Shapiro cannot win the case for him.

To my knowledge, Business and Personal Mail (and email) are in a totally different catagory.  A business owner too, can use your mails to them and make them pubic if they are "blacklisting" you, for various reasons.

I think you are totally within your rights to disclose unprofessional behavior to a community that might use this person's services.  People do have a right to know who they are dealing with.

As for lible, I wonder if they would sue Consumer Reports too, if there was a bad article on them in there LOL.

All I really want at this point is all references to the mesh removed from their website (which they are working on), and an apology from them or the person responsible for posting the mesh .

Quote - > Quote - 3) I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet. .

Woah Acadia... Slow down there. He told them he would be reporting their actions. That's a far cry from saying "I'm going to Slander You". First off, the written or posted word would be libel, not slander and second, it's only Libel if it's not true. 

Now to the issue of posting Private emails. It's not "Illegal", however it IS against the "Renderosity TOS" rules. If I had posted emails to me from the VP of Content at Content Paradise back when I had issues with the Koji Faceroom farce, I'd have been drawn and quartered insted of just tarred and feathered.  It's not against the TOS to Parapharase what was said in the emails IE: "He told me....", but to post them as written breaks the TOS.

That being said, reporting them to PayPal and their ISP for operating under false identities (That Domain Registration is as phoney as they come) is most definately called for as well as the fact that they're selling items who's copyrights they have not ownership of should get them banned from PayPal at the least,.

Well, they did respond to me today in a less than friendly manner.  They have removed the mesh and the link from their purchase page, but they will not apologize as they feel they have done nothing wrong.  They say they will get me the conatct information on the person who posted the mesh on their site, but I don't expect much else from them at this point

Even if the benefit of the doubt could be extended to them, that they unwittingly accepted a model from somebody assuming that it was theirs to give, you'd hope that they would at least have the grace to acknowledge that they dropped the ball on this. The whole thing feels a little amateur, not helped by the appearance of their web site, although I'm no expert in these matters. As for the domain name business, that doesn't bode well at all. You wonder if Renderosity need to know about that in a more official capacity given that the Eclipse site sports a Renderosity link share logo, with its attendant usage restrictions and guidelines.

Realistically, I think that's all I can expect from Eclipse.   They made it pretty clear that they don't have the time or desire to deal with me.  I just won't be doing business with them in the future...

I can understand their reluctance since I came at them with both barrels, but I realy feel that they don't feel that they are at all responsible. 

Also, I don't think Renderosity will sever ties with them on this one incident.  If it happened several times I think they might, but 1 mesh is not that important to them. 

Eromanric - I see your forum post there has dissapeared as well.

MarkHirst - I can understand putting rubbish on a domain reg form that can stop junk and sales calls. But for a business thats a no no.  Any responsible e-business should happily give you a land based address if asked. 

Plus a good hosting company should let you opt out from displaying personal contact info. 
Most of the hosters I deal with do. goddady certainly does. 

Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.  

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over.   Every other time I release one someone does something like this.  It's gotten old....

Quote - Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.  

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over.   Every other time I release one someone does something like this.  It's gotten old....

That's the real killer and shame here Eromanric.  I have enjoyed free meshes in the past.  Years back (like 1996 or 97) I was a huge fan of (the now gone) SWMA.net.  Really great people, great artists, wonderful animations.  It was what got me into 3D.  These generous people posting meshes of things I was interested in that I could take into (was it called Bcad?) and look at and ponder and learn from.

I always treated these meshes with reverence, these people who made these amazing recreations of spaceships and items from the Star Wars universe were like gods to me.  3D was rare to behold back then (at least for me).

I know many people are thankful everyday to those wonderful sculpters like yourself who create and share these fantastic things.  You each push yourselves to higher levels and you kindly share your meshes afterwards, this is most admirable and it is a sad statement on human society that there is a slice who feel they are entitled to steal and claim credit for these things.

Thanks Thromm.  I have to admit that I got into CG  for some of the same reasons.  I just hate getting my stuff ripped off, especially when I work so hard on it and post it for public use....

don't let them get you down, ero. those guys are the exception that proves the rule that we all appreciate the generosity of folks like you.

not that i'm after any freebies, i rarely use them lol. but it would be a shame to stop doing something you cleary enjoy because of a few bad apples.

billy

I'm with everyone here. Don't give in because of a few numptys like this guy. 

I've got CDs full of freebies...never hurts to check it out.

the dorks that can't create rip off those that can.

let's see...how long in history has this been going on for? a couple thousand years.

Quote - Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.  

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over.   Every other time I release one someone does something like this.  It's gotten old....

Well.... That kind of goes with the territory of posting free meshes. (also a business thing)
You did hear that old saying that "No good deed goes unpunished?...."

When I give away my work, I figure there will be people trying to take advantage of it... And there will be people whom are delighted with it, and there will be people who could care less one way or another. So, I take the good with the bad, I expect that there will be some degree of mishandling it.

It's sort of like lending money to friends, I never lend more then what I would be willing to give away or lose. For example, if I lent somene 100 bucks, and it would tick me off if they never paid it back, I don't lend it...

In a perfect world, yes, it shouldn't happen that way, and you should get an apology and restitution... But the world is very very veeery far from perfect.

Back to business thing, did you know that "Cost of loss prevention" (due to theft and bad business practices) is built into the price of all goods that we purchase? Food, clothes, furniture...
It comes down to feasibility.... Is it cheaper to just take the loss, or is it cheaper to pursue recovering the damages. Material ones. Emotional damages are unrecoverable, monetarily or by apologies or really any other ways... Even if you get money and apologies... They're not all they're cracked up to be. (BTDT)

*Quote - "Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.  

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over.   Every other time I release one someone does something like this.  It's gotten old...."*

MrSparky and Sean, I think you both did a great job letting us know there is an unethical company selling stolen meshes that rip off their customers and may even get them into troubles in the future.

Posting and publishing the misconducts of dishonest business practices are, in many cases, necessary to warn innocent people not to fall victims of those companies and make those companies stop such business frauds.

There are many examples on the world wide Web where public speech forums exert power over fraudulent businesses.     Just to show an example:

http://registerflies.com/welcome-to-the-registerfly-gripe-site-4.html

The above link is a Web site/forum devoted to disclose the fraudulent business practices of the once-popular domain registrar called RegisterFly.    One of the company's victims decided to make them go public after being ignored many times, and dozens of victims gathered to the forum to tell their misfortunes with RegisterFly to the general public.

Anyway, Sean, you have all of us behind you (maybe except for one or two), and don't be discouraged by the nasty attitude of the es3d guy.    What you did is righteous, and I'm thankful to you!

Ashley