i had no idea C4d had gotten so expensive!!! i think i had a demo with a deal the last time i saw it, wasn't that much though. i wonder if they will do haggling, couldn't get my Zbrush demo open because 30 days had passed from downloading it to me unzipping it (friendly) i've seen a few demo reels of stuff made with C4d so was almost sold on it, but i liked the sound of Zbrush(sounded like i could basically draw my models), so are you saying Zbrush is a bit poo then Rorrkonn, but are recommending C4d?