Yes of cause, i must be tired. Sorry Dogface... That's exactly what i want to get rid of. After spending hours with rhino creating the perfect model of something i hate having to reduce the level of detail to make it usable in polygon based apps. Heck, i have made models of furnitures that had to have more than twice the polygon count of Vickie or Mike to look good. More than that is that i think nurb characters would allow a much more flexible (and maybe natural) joint system, but then we all need a completely new collection of base characters :o( /Ohman