Rather than spend many thousands of $$ for a few days on the beach for Spring Break this year, I've decided to spend about $1.5 to 2.0k doing a custom PC building project with my son.  The machine will be his for gaming (and maybe... perhaps... on rare days... homework).  However, I plan to also run some firefly renders in the background when he's not using it.  So the machine needs to be a decent gamer but would be nice to have as a decent Poser renderer too.  I bought P7 but went back to P6 until they fix P7, so I don't expect a render speed boost from the dual core AMD yet... though it will be nice to get eventually (if P7 is fixed).

So I know several folks here have built their own rigs, and I'm hoping some of you wizards out there might take a gander at my proposed build and give me any feedback you're willing to give.

Thanks!  tguyus

AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ Windsor 2.6GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2

ZALMAN CNPS7000B-ALCU 92mm 2 Ball Cooling Fan (for CPU)

ASUS M2N-E SLI Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 500 SLI MCP ATX AMD

mushkin 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) with EPP Profile Dual Channel

EVGA 256-P2-N624-AR GeForce 7900GS 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 KO

(2x,in RAID 1) Western Digital Caviar SE WD1600JSRTL 160GB 7200 RPM 8MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - Retail

LITE-ON Black 16X DVD-ROM 52X CD-R 32X CD-RW 52X CD-ROM 2MB Cache IDE Combo - Retail

Thermaltake Tsunami VA3000BWA Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower

Thermaltake Purepower W0129RU ATX12V 600 W power supply

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 70SB073A00000 7.1 Channels 24-bit 96KHz PCI

Logitech X-140 5 watts 2.0

Raidmax KM-101SB Silver & Black 104 Normal Keys 15 Function Keys PS/2 Standard Keyboard Mouse Combo

NEC Display Solutions 1940CX-BK Black 19" 8ms DVI LCD display

OPTI-UPS SS1200BLK 6 Outlets Voltage Stabilizer

Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64

Notes:  Don't plan to get a second video card for now, though want a SLI mobo in case decide to add a second card later

thanks again!

I don't see anything obviously wrong for running P6. But a few thoughts: Check the OpenGL support on the graphics card. My experience is that you'll do better to avoid any drivers available through Microsoft. Either use the CD that came with the card, or download from the hardware manufacturer. You need OpenGL 2 for P6, or things get unstable. MS may be trying to encourage people to use something called DirectX. If your OS supports dual-core, you should at least see Poser running with all the power of one core, and the OS on the other. On 1 Gig of RAM I see a 60-40 split between Poser and Windows, so you'll probably be letting Poser have all the RAM it can cope with. I don't know the motherboard, and I made this mistake when memory could still be specified in kilobytes, but will you have to throw away DIMMs to add more memory?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2680792

i would upgrade the graphic card to 512mb, up your hard drive gigs too.
make sure you have sufficent cooling for the beast.

Spring for more memory, at least 4gb.  Since you're mainly going to use Poser there isn't any huge advantage in using XP 64 with only 2gb.  If you have 4gb you can at least use a whole 3gb of RAM for only poser, with 1gb free for the OS and whatnot.

If you have a choice between two produces of the same model, and one is "Retail" e.g. your hard disk, and the other is "OEM", always get the OEM version.  It is much, much cheaper.  Look for an OEM package hard disk and I'm certain you can get much more space for similar price.

Louguet here has shown that SLI (two video cards) doesn't benefit appreciably in Poser and other 3d apps.  I wouldn't even consider it.

Consider going with a simpler Soundblaster card.  I doubt anyone can really appreciate the difference between them.

There is really no need to custom build your own Poser/Game computer.

There are many already pre-configured high-end computers that already have all of the necessary features for about $1000 to $1200. You may actually save money and time by considering a pre-configured computer.

Take a look at the HP, Gateway and DELL computers that have the following configurations:

Intel Core 2 Duo Processor (Pentium – NOT AMD or Celeron)

2 GB Memory (or More)

Separate Video Card (NVIDIA or GFORCE – at least 256 MB)

300 GB Hard Drive (or More)

All of the other options and features are pretty much standard in most of the higher-end computers.

Take a look at the two models below…

Gateway GN5416E Minitower

HP Pavilion a1740n Minitower (This unit has all of the necessary features, but it uses 244 of shared for the Video Display. You can always add a separate Video Card to the unit for faster Video playback)

I hope this is helpful.

-Jay

""There are many already pre-configured high-end computers that already have all of the necessary features for about $1000 to $1200. You may actually save money and time by considering a pre-configured computer."""

Disagree 100,000x over.  This was covered in Acadias thread as well I think.  There is no sense whatsoever in buying a "box" computer if you feel you are up to the challenge of plugging in a couple of wires yourself.   Especially if the PC is intended for gaming or graphics.  Box computers come pre-installed with a whole slew of worthless garbage software that likes to insist on running in the background and consuming memory.  You can adjust settings in msconfig but if your going to go that far - again - you might as well have built your own.

not build your own?
what?
deny oneself the sheer joy of being able to melt your own processor?!
blasphemy!!!

A couple of things.
The 7900 GS is a decent graphics card, but definitely not the fastest on the block. Consider a 7950 GT - somewhat more expensive, but much, much better for gaming.
OpenGL drivers - this is nVidia. Which means good OpenGL support and good XP64 / Wista support.
The onboard sound system of the mainboard is already 7.1. Unless you're an audio freak, it is good enough. You can save some serious bucks by not adding the sound card.
Swap the Western DIgital drives for Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 drives. Those are faster and more silent.

I'd recommend looking into an Intel Core 2 Duo system based on an E6400 CPU. The price should be comparable to what you've posted here, and as of this summer, the Intels deliver more processing power per dollar.

Here's the spec on the system I just ordered.

INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6600 2.4 GHZ EM64T 1066MHZ RETAIL BOXED BUNDLE W/
=MSI P965 PLATINUM= KINGSTON 2GB DDR2 533=(1GB x 2)= MS VISTA 64-bit BUSINESS 1PK (DVD)= ASSEMBLE/TEST BUNDLE   $743.50   $743.50 

EVGA 320-P2-N811-AR e-GeForce 8800GTS 320MB DDR3 PCI-Express w/HDCP DVI+DVI+HDTVOut ROHS $20.00 Mail-In Manufacturer Rebate Available Till 02/28/2007   $299.99   $299.99 

WD 250GB WD2500KS SATA300 16MB 7200RPM (Bare drive)

• EXT.SATA ENCLOSURE OPTIONS
• 0.5m SATA CABLE   $69.00   x2 =$138.00 

ANTEC SONATA II (BLACK) MID TOWER W/SMARTPOWER 2.0 450W ATX POWER SUPPLY

• EXTRA FAN OPTIONS   $97.90   $97.90 

PLEXTOR PX-755SA/BP/BL 16X DUAL SATA DVD DRIVE (Black bare drive without s/w)

• ACCESSORIES OPTIONS
• 18" ATA ROUND CABLE
• ADD-ON MEDIA OPTIONS   $87.40   $87.40 

MICROSOFT OPTICAL DESKTOP WIRED KEYBOARD & MOUSE COMBO w/ FINGER PRINT #BZ5-00002 (Retail)   $34.90   $34.90 

About $1400 worth. It'll be great for P7 or any game that comes along (for at least awhile). 
www.mwave.com

In retrospect, I probably should have doubled the Ram from 2 to 4 GB, but used the saved money on the much beefier graphics card. My thought was it'll be easier and cheaper to upgrade the RAM than buy a whole new the video card when the time comes, so I bought the better video card up-front.

My only concern is running the new 64bit Vista with all my current programs. We'll see.

Quote - I don't see anything obviously wrong for running P6. But a few thoughts: Check the OpenGL support on the graphics card. My experience is that you'll do better to avoid any drivers available through Microsoft. Either use the CD that came with the card, or download from the hardware manufacturer. You need OpenGL 2 for P6, or things get unstable. MS may be trying to encourage people to use something called DirectX. If your OS supports dual-core, you should at least see Poser running with all the power of one core, and the OS on the other. On 1 Gig of RAM I see a 60-40 split between Poser and Windows, so you'll probably be letting Poser have all the RAM it can cope with. I don't know the motherboard, and I made this mistake when memory could still be specified in kilobytes, but will you have to throw away DIMMs to add more memory?

Good tips Antonia!  Thanks!  And re the RAM, the mobo has 4 slots and I planned to fill 2 of them with 1G sticks.... so shouldn't have to throw those away anytime soon.  And I think the nVidia 7900GTS engine should be able to do OpenGL without problems.  Or at least I hope so!  And I will stick with manufacturer drivers to improve my changes, so thanks for that tip too!  tguyus

Ulp, started responding one by one before I realized how many excellent and thoughtful replies had been posted.  Will try to consolidate my own responses to avoid having all these little individual tguyus responses in the thread.  And I really really appreciate ALL the time and thought folks put into these responses.  What a great community...

Quote - Check out that thread. I was asking for help putting together a new system last month. I got some seriously good advice and information and now have a system that I'm happy with.

Will check out the thread referenced by Acadia... thanks!

Quote - i would upgrade the graphic card to 512mb, up your hard drive gigs too.
make sure you have sufficent cooling for the beast.

Will look into 512mb gfx card... though I wonder if just plugging 2 256mb cards into an SLI arrangement wouldn't be plenty of power for running any of the games my son wants to run (e.g., Oblivion).  Will also explore HDD options more thoroughly too, though there I might just stick with a single fast drive for the system and core programs (or maybe 2 identical in RAID 0 or RAID 1) plus another big (maybe slower and cheaper) drive for storage.  So many options!  Thanks...

Quote - Spring for more memory, at least 4gb.  Since you're mainly going to use Poser there isn't any huge advantage in using XP 64 with only 2gb.  If you have 4gb you can at least use a whole 3gb of RAM for only poser, with 1gb free for the OS and whatnot.

If you have a choice between two produces of the same model, and one is "Retail" e.g. your hard disk, and the other is "OEM", always get the OEM version.  It is much, much cheaper.  Look for an OEM package hard disk and I'm certain you can get much more space for similar price.

Louguet here has shown that SLI (two video cards) doesn't benefit appreciably in Poser and other 3d apps.  I wouldn't even consider it.

Consider going with a simpler Soundblaster card.  I doubt anyone can really appreciate the difference between them.

All excellent thoughts, thank you.  I will definitely look into the cost of upping to 2 sticks of 2G RAM.  That would give me 4gb with capacity to expand to 8gb if that ever seems worthwhile.  I'll also pay attention to the retail vs OEM thing.  I want to make sure I get all the setup disks and cables and such that I need, so I guess I will need to be careful about what I can do OEM (HDDs?) and what really needs to be retail (motherboard?).  I did notice that on newegg.com the differences between OEM and retail version prices are pretty small for some things.  But I will definitely check!  And I will dump the sound card, esp since another kind poster suggested the onboard 7.1 should be fine.  Thanks!

Quote - There is really no need to custom build your own Poser/Game computer.

 

This issue spurred a "teachable moment" over dinner with my kids last night.  I explained how --relative to me building one for myself-- companies like Dell can offer lower prices based on bulk purchase discounts they get on components and yet they need to increase prices to cover labor, overhead, and other costs of doing business.  Trying to keep my lesson in business and economics to a level appropriate for teenagers, I offered a FEW additional insights such as the importance of assigning a value to my own time ("opportunity cost of time" for you economists out there).  But I also explained that building one myself allows me to avoid features I don't want (e.g., those irritating software add-ons mentioned by another poster below) and improve the flexibility I may want for future upgrades (e.g., avoiding proprietary parts from places like Dell).  Most importantly for me, I want to use the project to teach and inspire my son, who has shown both keen interest and aptitude around computers.  Kind of like the old days when your dad might have showed you how to clean a carburetor (when cars had those) or passed along other life skills.  All this because I'm starting to think that the secret to getting your kids through the teenage years may just be to help them find and nurture a (healthy) passion for something.  So... bring on the grounding wrist straps and phillips head screwdrivers!

IMO no products "need" to be retail except the motherboard, as you noted, for included connectors and cables.  It only really affects price, you still have the manufacturer's warranty.  The manuals for various things are all junk that will sit in a bottom drawer somewhere, if you don't actually throw them away (I do).

The difference in price between OEM and retail can be quite large, although in your case it looks like the various bits are within $20 of each other.

According to Louguet here there is an almost insignificant difference (1-2%) in render speeds when using different speeds of memory.  You can save quite a bit of money by going with 667MHz memory:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231112
800MHz, $399

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231110
667MHz, $369

I bought the 2x2GB 800MHz G.Skill memory and it works fine with my ASUS P5WDH Deluxe motherboard, so I'd expect it would work fine in yours, although in my case the motherboard won't actually run it at 800MHz, it slows it down to 533MHz (meaning you're likely just as well off buying the slower mem and saving 30 bucks).

Quote - A couple of things.
The 7900 GS is a decent graphics card, but definitely not the fastest on the block. Consider a 7950 GT - somewhat more expensive, but much, much better for gaming.
OpenGL drivers - this is nVidia. Which means good OpenGL support and good XP64 / Wista support.
The onboard sound system of the mainboard is already 7.1. Unless you're an audio freak, it is good enough. You can save some serious bucks by not adding the sound card.
Swap the Western DIgital drives for Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 drives. Those are faster and more silent.

I'd recommend looking into an Intel Core 2 Duo system based on an E6400 CPU. The price should be comparable to what you've posted here, and as of this summer, the Intels deliver more processing power per dollar.

Thanks svdl! 

Will see if I can afford a 7950GT, and I will definitely stick with nVidia.  And you saved me $80 on the sound card!

I did scope out one Intel alternative which substituted the following for the AMD chip and mobo:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775
plus
ASUS P5N32-E SLI Plus LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard

Compared to the AMD rig of--
AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ Windsor 2.6GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2
plus
ASUS M2N-E SLI Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 500 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard

... it was about $220 more expensive on newegg for the Intel setup, though I may well have some apples and oranges issues there, perhaps especially with the the motherboard...?

So I need to explore more I guess, though studies show that having too many choices makes consumers LESS happy... "options overload" or something like that.

cheers...

Quote - IMO no products "need" to be retail except the motherboard, as you noted, for included connectors and cables.  It only really affects price, you still have the manufacturer's warranty.  The manuals for various things are all junk that will sit in a bottom drawer somewhere, if you don't actually throw them away (I do).

The difference in price between OEM and retail can be quite large, although in your case it looks like the various bits are within $20 of each other.

According to Louguet here there is an almost insignificant difference (1-2%) in render speeds when using different speeds of memory.  You can save quite a bit of money by going with 667MHz memory:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231112
800MHz, $399

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231110
667MHz, $369

I bought the 2x2GB 800MHz G.Skill memory and it works fine with my ASUS P5WDH Deluxe motherboard, so I'd expect it would work fine in yours, although in my case the motherboard won't actually run it at 800MHz, it slows it down to 533MHz (meaning you're likely just as well off buying the slower mem and saving 30 bucks).

VERY interesting!  I just checked the specs on the motherboard you mention and it says the following:

ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard
AGP Slots: None
CPU Type: Quad-core / Core 2 Extreme / Core 2 Duo / Pentium
Dual Channel Supported: Yes
FSB: 1066/800MHz
Maximum Memory Supported: 8GB
Memory Standard: DDR2 800
Number of Memory Slots: 4×240pin

Clearly I have much still to learn since I would have thought this setup would support DDR2 800 RAM running at full tilt.  But if not, then I can indeed save $30... twice! 

And thanks again on the OEM vs retail insight.  I'm thinking I might aim for OEM on the HDDs but stick with retail on the motherboard, as you suggest.  And I've seen many complaints on newegg about hardcopy manuals, and that you're better off just downloading the electronic version from the manufacturer's site anyway for better readability, so no need to go retail on most things it seems.

thanks again...

Quote - Here's the spec on the system I just ordered....

Wow, that looks like a nice system.  It also looks very consistent with all the other advice I've been getting (e.g., go with Intel rather than AMD)....so mind if I just copy you?    Thanks for posting!

Quote - > Quote - Here's the spec on the system I just ordered....

Wow, that looks like a nice system.  It also looks very consistent with all the other advice I've been getting (e.g., go with Intel rather than AMD)....so mind if I just copy you?    Thanks for posting!

You're welcome! :-) And I certainly do NOT mind if  you copy some or all...the reason I mentioned it was it is a pretty good system for the money and it was at your starting price.  

That and to brag a little...I've been rendering on an Athlon 64 3000 for too long , so I'm proud of my new toy.

BTW: If you have the extra cash, I would go ahead and buy the extra 2gb RAM. I provided the link to where I purchased my system but you may find better prices elsewhere.

Try this graphics card on for size:D

http://ati.amd.com/products/fireglv7350/index.html

That FireGL sure looks sweet. But I'm afraid I can buy two compete midrange computer systems for the price of one FireGL card..

My eyes are bigger than my wallet..lol

I'll stick with my Fire GL V3400 for now(still a good card IMO).

I've just got done building a system, so I'll make a couple comments:

I'd also say go with the Intel CPU, for one thing they run much cooler, and thus quieter, and the stock (retail box) cooling fans are fine with them.

I also agree with th ecomments above- don't bother witha sound card, most of the motherboard ones are fine.

RAID 10 is nice, too- While you need 4 160 GB drives to make 320 GB, they run throughput twice as much, and the setup is redundant.  I had one of the new drives fail after about 2 weeks, the replacement was painless, the system (I'm still running Win 2000) took care of moving all the data to the replacement drive, automatically.

My system came out to about $1500, with the 4 drives, Core 2 Duo E6600, 2 GB RAM (really all Windows can use), ATI X1950XT graphics card (good buy for $250, but it will NOT drive two monitors), 600 W power supply, no operating system, no monitors.

You still need a floopy to instal the RAID drivers, though...  ;-) 

Thanks again to one and all for the great advice!  Tweaking and reconciling here and there, I've moved to the following new setup plan, which comes to about $1850.  Would have loved to boost to 4gb RAM but will plan to do that later (after the sticker shock wears off for my wife).  Same with a DirectX 10 compatible video card, if my son ever gets desperate for a DirectX 10 game (and only after the prices on those vid cards come down).

Any and all comments and suggestions on this alternative rig would also be greatly appreciated!  cheers... Tguyus

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

ZALMAN CNPS9500 AT 2 Ball CPU Cooling Fan/Heatsink - Retail

Intel BOXD975XBX2KR "Bad Axe" LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 675 (PC2 5400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

EVGA 512-P2-N635-AR Geforce 7950GT KO 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail

[TWO:] Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

Onboard sound

SONY Black 2M Cache E-IDE/ATAPI DVD Burner - OEM

SONY Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal Floppy Drive Model MPF920 Black - OEM

COOLER MASTER Mystique RC-632-KKN1-GP Black Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

Thermaltake Purepower W0129RU ATX12V 600 W Power Supply 115/230 V CE, FCC, UL, CUL, TUV certification - Retail

 NEC Display Solutions 90GX2-BK Black 19" 4ms DVI LCD Monitor 400 cd/m2 700:1 - Retail
 
OPTI-UPS SS1200BLK 6 Outlets Voltage Stabilizer

Microsoft Windows XP Professional X64

Well balanced system, and fast! PSU has more than enough oomph for this rig, and some to spare for when you add an extra hard drive or change the graphics card. This one should last you a couple of years.

I'd skip the CPU fan, as I mentioned the Core 2 Duos seem to run pretty cool, and the retail box version's included fan/heat sink isn't too bad, nice and quiet too.  Plus most of the cases these days seem to have a vent and pipe to bring cool air directly down to the CPU.  

I'd add a front case fan though, unless your new box already comes with one (mine did).  They help to cool the drives. 

I also went with the Corsair matched memory and the 7200.10 drives, which are supposed to be faster than the 7200.9 ones, a little harder to find, though.

The Lite-on DVD burners you had in your original spec are fine, incidently, I've got two of 'em.  I suspect all the DVD burners come from the same factory in China these days, they only change the front plate to make 'em Sonys or whatever...   ;-)

Quote - I bought the 2x2GB 800MHz G.Skill memory and it works fine with my ASUS P5WDH Deluxe motherboard, so I'd expect it would work fine in yours, although in my case the motherboard won't actually run it at 800MHz, it slows it down to 533MHz (meaning you're likely just as well off buying the slower mem and saving 30 bucks).

Quote - VERY interesting!  I just checked the specs on the motherboard you mention and it says the following:

ASUS P5W DH DELUXE/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard
[...]
Clearly I have much still to learn since I would have thought this setup would support DDR2 800 RAM running at full tilt.  But if not, then I can indeed save $30... twice! 

The P5WDH was designed with overclocking in mind so it's configured to assume very conversative settings when it comes to frequencies and voltages and so forth.   This is especially helpful in overclocking crash recovery but it also means that you may have to tweak things a little in BIOS.

For instance, I put in 4GB of OCZ Titanium on my system.  It's technically PC2-6400, 800/1066mHz RAM.  However, the P5WDH configured it to initially run as PC2-5300, 667mHz RAM. 

A few key presses in BIOS and it was running the RAM at full speed.  So it is possible to have the P5WDH run your RAM at full tilt, even when it decides to run it slower when you first install your RAM.

@ svdl, Jim Burton, nukem....

Thanks very much for the feedback and info! 

I'll have to check the prices on the Lite-On vs Sony DVD burner.  My original plan had the Lite-On but it was only CD burner, DVD reader.  The Sony looked like a good price for DVD burning capability added on.  But will check... I've always seen good reviews on Lite-On, such as in PC World.

As for overclocking, BIOS-tweaking seems a little scary, as does the very term "overclocking" given that this is my first build.  I do plan to read up on overclocking though, especially since it apparently leads to significant improvement for gaming... and I'm guessing perhaps for firefly rendering too.

Thanks again!

Get a pioneer burner because they are the best and affordable.

Quote - Get a pioneer burner because they are the best and affordable.

Thanks CobraEye.  I will look at the Pioneer too.

Also, I posted my latest Intel-based plan at the PCMechanic Tech Forum yesterday and the suggestions I've gotten so far include:

1.  "think twice about X64 - driver support is just bad."

2.  Get retail rather than OEM version of burner to get software.

3.  Look at the LiteOn and LG DVD burners too (echoing Jim Burton on LiteOn)

4.  Don't bother with RAID 1 since it only helps deal with physical drive failure, and don't help with malware or file corruption which would appear on both drives.

5.  Look into ATI FireGL or Nvidia Quadro workstation video cards if running intensive 3D applications.

On the last point, I'm guessing the commenter was thinking about something other than Poser since many folks have said a whiz bang vid card doesn't help Poser except perhaps in Preview animations, so I'm not figuring to change the vid card.

On RAID, I guess I could just go with RAID 0 and look for a possible speed boost instead of backup protection.

On Win XP x64, I was under the impression the 64-bit version of XP was reasonably well-supported and that it would help with Poser, especially for multi-thread rendering.  Am I wrong about that?  Should I be looking at regular old Win XP?  Or the Media Center edition I've seen used for gaming rigs by some assmbly houses?

Thanks anticipatorily for any additional advice folks could give, especially since I'm about to pull out the credit card!  (I want to get the parts in the house before my son's Spring Break so I'll need to order soon!)

cheers...

Quote -
2.  Get retail rather than OEM version of burner to get software.

I bought a OEM version of my second Lite-on, BTW, as I read the original (Nero) drivers would still work (It was a newer model, slightly faster)

Guess what, they didn't work!

I found a set of "generic" Nero drivers though, for about $10, which did work, but I'll buy the Retail version next time!

Incidently, I've been building my own systems since my last pre-assembled one (which was a 386), and let me say it is getting easier and easier to set them up.   While you don't save a lot of money building them yourself, you do get better components.  

The downside is if there is a problem...    I've had bad memory, bad motherboards, bad drives, sometimes it is hard to figure out what is wrong, too.  But components do seem to be getting better.

The ATI cards (at least some of them) are supposed to have problems with 64-bit Windows, I hear.  My "old" system has a ATI workstation card (a 9800 Pro), the new one has a ATI gaming card (a 1950X), the later seems to run Max 9 AND Poser better, if anything, but it doesn't really support dual monitors (in spite of what ATI says).  I'm going to try a second video card in the new box. 

After I lost a couple months of work in my old-old system I got a lot more religious about backing up my new-old system (which has RAID 0, plus a dedicated backup drive).  However, as the new-new system is on RAID 10 I don't plan on doing many backup (RAID 10, as you probably know is RAID 0 + 1, you need 4 identical drives).  Still, I make my living on the computer, for others it might not be worth it.

Quote - > Quote -

2.  Get retail rather than OEM version of burner to get software.

 

I bought a OEM version of my second Lite-on, BTW, as I read the original (Nero) drivers would still work (It was a newer model, slightly faster)

Guess what, they didn't work!

I found a set of "generic" Nero drivers though, for about $10, which did work, but I'll buy the Retail version next time!

Incidently, I've been building my own systems since my last pre-assembled one (which was a 386), and let me say it is getting easier and easier to set them up.   While you don't save a lot of money building them yourself, you do get better components.  

The downside is if there is a problem...    I've had bad memory, bad motherboards, bad drives, sometimes it is hard to figure out what is wrong, too.  But components do seem to be getting better.

The ATI cards (at least some of them) are supposed to have problems with 64-bit Windows, I hear.  My "old" system has a ATI workstation card (a 9800 Pro), the new one has a ATI gaming card (a 1950X), the later seems to run Max 9 AND Poser better, if anything, but it doesn't really support dual monitors (in spite of what ATI says).  I'm going to try a second video card in the new box. 

After I lost a couple months of work in my old-old system I got a lot more religious about backing up my new-old system (which has RAID 0, plus a dedicated backup drive).  However, as the new-new system is on RAID 10 I don't plan on doing many backup (RAID 10, as you probably know is RAID 0 + 1, you need 4 identical drives).  Still, I make my living on the computer, for others it might not be worth it.

Thanks very much, Jim, for the additional insights.  It's great to be able to get all this great ex ante advice form you, svdl, and all the others who have been willing to take time to share your wisdom and experience on this.  I really appreciate it.

Latest tweaks to the system plan are:

1.  substitute a Corsair 520w PSU for the Thermaltake

2.  drop the Zalman CPU fan and use the cooler included with the E6600 CPU

3.  substitute a Lite-On DVD burner for the Sony ... retail version

4.  substitute a NEC floppy drive for the Sony (saves $2.00!!  I can tell my wife I'm really economizing!)

Seems like the last major decision I have to make now is on the OS:  Win XP Pro x64 or plain Win XP Pro (don't want to do Home version since I want to be able to network this machine to the others in my house).  Some commenters have made me nervous about driver problems with the x64 version, but my understanding is that there are advantages to the x64 version.

Quote - As for overclocking, BIOS-tweaking seems a little scary, as does the very term "overclocking" given that this is my first build.  I do plan to read up on overclocking though, especially since it apparently leads to significant improvement for gaming... and I'm guessing perhaps for firefly rendering too.

Overclocking can be intimidating.  Until I purchased the P5W, I hadn't attempted to overclock any of my previous system.  But armed with research and a BIOS designed with overclocking features, the process was relatively simple and pretty painless.

If you plan to overclock, I'd suggest getting fairly fast RAM.  PC2-6400 800/1066mHz is a good place to start.  The higher frequency ratings gives you much greater 'play' with overclocking settings.

If you get RAM that has a lower maximum rated frequency, it's very likely you'll bottleneck prematurely by exceeding the RAM's highest stable frequency first before reaching the CPU's maximum stable overclocked speed.  Simply put, you'll be putting your CPU on a shorter overclocking leash with lower frequency rated RAM.

At #1: WinXP 64 bit drivers can be a problem. Not with nVidia though. 
I looked up the driver support on the Intel site. WinXP 64 is supported. As long as you don't put two graphics cards in Crossfire mode (an ATI feature, and thus badly supported under anything not Windows XP 32 bit) you're fine.
DVD burning - this could be troublesome. You should check out the major burning software brands - Nero and Roxio - for their XP64 support.
Virus scanners - usually crap on XP64. Though Housecall (online scanner by TrendMicro, www.trendmicro.com) works on my XP64 system.

At #2: actually, see the DVD remark of #1. The software bundled with the DVD writer might not be XP64 or Vista compatible. Another problem with most software bundled with retail versions is that they're the 'basic' or 'lite' versions, not the full fledged versions. Better go OEM and purchase the burning software YOU choose, with the features YOU want.

At #3: Totally agreed. And don't forget NEC - though some of their DVD burners tend to be a little noisy. Tip: try to get some info on the noise of a DVD player in a computer store by asking them tp play a demo movie in this box and that - if the DVD player sounds like a figher jet taking off you should consider another brand...

At #4: RAID 1 indeed only deals with physical drive failure. I'd also say not to bother too much with RAID 0. It only speeds up transfer rate, not access time, and most applications do not really benefit from the increased transfer rate. A notable exception would be harddisk recording.

Not using RAID 0 also allows you to fine tune what disks are used for what purpose. For example, it might be a good idea to place the Windows swap file on one disk and the Poser libraries on another.

At #5:

Nero 7 claims to be Vista compatible now, at least in the full version.

Quote - > Quote - As for overclocking, BIOS-tweaking seems a little scary, as does the very term "overclocking" given that this is my first build.  I do plan to read up on overclocking though, especially since it apparently leads to significant improvement for gaming... and I'm guessing perhaps for firefly rendering too.

Overclocking can be intimidating.  Until I purchased the P5W, I hadn't attempted to overclock any of my previous system.  But armed with research and a BIOS designed with overclocking features, the process was relatively simple and pretty painless.

If you plan to overclock, I'd suggest getting fairly fast RAM.  PC2-6400 800/1066mHz is a good place to start.  The higher frequency ratings gives you much greater 'play' with overclocking settings.

If you get RAM that has a lower maximum rated frequency, it's very likely you'll bottleneck prematurely by exceeding the RAM's highest stable frequency first before reaching the CPU's maximum stable overclocked speed.  Simply put, you'll be putting your CPU on a shorter overclocking leash with lower frequency rated RAM.

Thanks for the input nukem!  After giving it some more thought, I think I'm going to eschew the overclocking approach, at least for now on this first build.  Perhaps when I have more experience, I'll revisit for a future build.  For now, my understanding is that if I avoid overclocking I can use the stock cooler on the E6600 and thereby avoid compromising my warranty.  But tahnks to your advice, I'll know to watch my RAM selections carefully if and when I take the overclocking plunge!  cheers!

Quote - At #1: WinXP 64 bit drivers can be a problem. Not with nVidia though. 
I looked up the driver support on the Intel site. WinXP 64 is supported. As long as you don't put two graphics cards in Crossfire mode (an ATI feature, and thus badly supported under anything not Windows XP 32 bit) you're fine.
DVD burning - this could be troublesome. You should check out the major burning software brands - Nero and Roxio - for their XP64 support.
Virus scanners - usually crap on XP64. Though Housecall (online scanner by TrendMicro, www.trendmicro.com) works on my XP64 system.

At #2: actually, see the DVD remark of #1. The software bundled with the DVD writer might not be XP64 or Vista compatible. Another problem with most software bundled with retail versions is that they're the 'basic' or 'lite' versions, not the full fledged versions. Better go OEM and purchase the burning software YOU choose, with the features YOU want.

At #3: Totally agreed. And don't forget NEC - though some of their DVD burners tend to be a little noisy. Tip: try to get some info on the noise of a DVD player in a computer store by asking them tp play a demo movie in this box and that - if the DVD player sounds like a figher jet taking off you should consider another brand...

At #4: RAID 1 indeed only deals with physical drive failure. I'd also say not to bother too much with RAID 0. It only speeds up transfer rate, not access time, and most applications do not really benefit from the increased transfer rate. A notable exception would be harddisk recording.

Not using RAID 0 also allows you to fine tune what disks are used for what purpose. For example, it might be a good idea to place the Windows swap file on one disk and the Poser libraries on another.

At #5:

Thanks svdl!  VERY helpful info!

On the OS, I'm now thinking of going with XP Pro plus upgrade coupon for Vista (which seems to be zero incrementl cost anyway, at least on newegg).  I need to check into that a little more though since I think the version of Vista you get is the business version, which I think I saw somewhere is fairly limited.

On the DVD drive, I'm thinking of going OEM now since I already have burning software... and I assume I can get the proper drivers online somewhere if they aren't included.

Will look at the NEC burner too...

Interesting idea on task assignment to different drives!  I'm thinking of putting OS and all programs on one of my 320GB sata drives and using the second drive for all my personal stuff, including runtimes.  This would make it easier to set up backups I think.  As for the swap file, I guess I'd put that on the first drive with the system stuff.

Getting close to time to pull the trigger, so thanks again!

Quote - Nero 7 claims to be Vista compatible now, at least in the full version.

Thanks RHaseltine, that's good to know!  I'll definitely check to see if the burning software (RecordNow) I have works on Vista.  But I'm guessing it might not and that I will want to buy a full and recent version of something... and I've heard good things about Nero over the years.

I have a couple of ideas I think you should think about for that system.

First off get a third hard drive to backup on, something as big as the two 160's or bigger. make sure to seperate the hard drives as much as posible, and I like to use these on drive cooling fans as extra cooling. The raid bit makes the drives much faster but if either drive crashes you loose all the data on both drives, now the raid 10 bit with both mirroring and striping is good but in most cases a raid array for the programs and a third drive for data is a bit cheaper and some times more functional.

Put as many case fans in as you have spaces for, make sure to get a case with lots of fan locations and more drive bays the better too.

As too getting a premaid DEL, HP, whatever; I allways tell people a custom upgradeable system is better long term, as you can get new video cards, main boards, etc. and keep upgradeing rather than having to get a whole new system every time you need a faster/better machine; These package deals seem like a good deal till you try to upgrade and find you have to get special expencive parts from the manufacturer or get a new PC.  

Quote - I have a couple of ideas I think you should think about for that system.

First off get a third hard drive to backup on, something as big as the two 160's or bigger. make sure to seperate the hard drives as much as posible, and I like to use these on drive cooling fans as extra cooling. The raid bit makes the drives much faster but if either drive crashes you loose all the data on both drives, now the raid 10 bit with both mirroring and striping is good but in most cases a raid array for the programs and a third drive for data is a bit cheaper and some times more functional.

Put as many case fans in as you have spaces for, make sure to get a case with lots of fan locations and more drive bays the better too.

As too getting a premaid DEL, HP, whatever; I allways tell people a custom upgradeable system is better long term, as you can get new video cards, main boards, etc. and keep upgradeing rather than having to get a whole new system every time you need a faster/better machine; These package deals seem like a good deal till you try to upgrade and find you have to get special expencive parts from the manufacturer or get a new PC.  

Thanks for the excellent advice **pdq1234. ** My latest build plan incorporates everything you suggest, including one HD for the operating system, one for my personal files (including runtimes), and a third for backups.  In addition, I'm using the Antec 900 chassis which has 120mm intake fans in front of the two drive bay modules as well as a 200mm exhaust fan on top and a 120mm exhaust fan in the back.  I'm also opting for 800MHz Corsair RAM rather than saving a few bucks on the value select 667MHz flavor in case I ever decide quad core prices have come down enough to bump up my CPU.  Finally, I'm going with the Intel Bad Axe 2 motherboard, which can also take the quad core (though I'm going with the Core 2 Duo E6600 for starters.  So I think we're on the same page!  Thanks!

Say ware do you live, I'll drop by and swipe that computer when ya get it done.

:-)

Finished the build last week and it is unbelievably fast and stable.  P7 has yet to crash, and it renders 3 to 5 times faster than my Dell workstation. 

So thanks again to everyone who helped me with the design concepts here!

Final build:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6600 - Retail

Intel Bad Axe 2: Intel BOXD975XBX2KR LGA 775 Intel 975X ATX Motherboard - Retail

CORSAIR CMPSU-520HX ATX12V v2.2 and EPS12V 2.91 520W Power Supply - Retail

EVGA 512-P2-N635-AR GeForce 7950GT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 KO Video Card - Retail

CORSAIR ValueSelect 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model VS2GBKIT667D2 - Retail

(Two) Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM

LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Bruner With 12X DVD-RAM Write Black SATA Model LH-20A1S - Retail

LITE-ON Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model SHD-16S1S-05 - OEM

Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

NEC Display Solutions 90GX2-BK Black 19" 4ms DVI LCD Monitor - Retail

Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2b 1pk w/Upgrade Coupon for Vista - OEM