Hello all.  I'm sure many of you have seen Cath/MEC4D's latest tutorial work

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1520561&member

I want to start a discussion & exploration on this idea of HDRI IBLs in Poser 7.

Here is a render using the pond HDR inculded in P7 (HDRVFX_pond_01_v_002.hdr)

The 2nd one is the same setup, except the IBL image is the lightprobe/angular map version of the same HDRI (also included in P7, (HDRVFX_pond_01_v_002a.hdr to be specific)

(I plugged the image into the contrast..to see what influence if any this has vs leaving it unconnected)

Notice the difference in shading & light response. Any thoughts.

Cath, I noticed you mentioned setting IBL contrast to 0.0, but when I do i get a black render.  Any insight into your use of "0" contrast to yield the incredible finshed product?

Here is the lightprobe from the first render ( sorry, editing time ran out)

Hi Alex, you can render in poser only using Light probe/angular map and that is what the IBL light was created for ... not other maps I did not check out if the Light probes included in Poser7 are true or fake HDR, I mean if they was converted from **JPG** 8-**bit** to **HDR** 32-**bit** losing all the important information. If i render using my real hdr light probe I have to set the Diffuse color of my models down to between 134-150 for all color RGB other it get to bright . Please don't forget that HDR Image based Lighting is used for lighting the scene as the objects, sky and plants would be do in the real scene, but this light not include here the direct sun light , so..this mean your model would be always like in shadow..sometimes is looks very dark and that is correct, the best effect of using HDRI is if you have the original background of the scene, this will match it exactly..as I did in my last image-tutorial.. see bellow The scene was based complete on HDR light and textures including the background image, now you tell me what was 2D here and what was 3D lol j/k

Very cool... I want to see more of what you are doing here.

Thanks Cath, I think the HDR's from poser are full ones. when I use that as the only light it illuminates the entire scene properly (without specular/ sun of course). , The lgiht is not flat as it is on ldri diffuse IBL renders at 100% brightness. I will post a couple samples in a sec.

Great, the correct light probe in a hdr format will show you the balance between the light and shadow, poser7 HDRI an hdr created from many images and converted to Light probe I mean there was not a silver ball used for create the light, but well I don't see there amny exposures however I try to fix them to show correct.. remember we have not monitors to view HDRI in true light that why the looks always so dark..   see the image above, the left is the original one from poser7 and the right fixed by me, this way you will get a wonderful effect much more faster and acurate..while rendering.. and that is what most of the creators forgett about before they sell stuff out.. so watch out what you buy..

Hmmmmm... so the probe was not made from several exposures as you should when making hdr?  taking ths into hdrshop to look at myself.

Also trying to understand the relationship between "IBL contrast" & the resultant image when working with HDR IBLs.
It's September, so school is back in session smile

It looks like it was slightly overexposed latitude/longitude image transformed to angular map. When I stop up & down, I don't get the balanced color image that you have from proper correction. So did they (e-frontier) generate a proper HDR image? The renders seem to have more light information illuminating the scenes than a similar LDRI IBL angular map

a  LDRI IBL angular map is not accepted no more in Poser7, it is wasting of your software !! I tested both LDRI and HDRI and I was very impressed with the poser7 renders and HDRI IBL

if your hdr image is correct you don't have to use the ibl contrast until you want it too to correct the mood of the scene..

P.S I don't used HDR SHOP for that , I use HDR TONE MAPPING to correct the final image.. as i did with poser7 hdr file.. you should read more about HDR Photography searching on google , I am in love with HDR Photography so amazing .. if you get more info about ,you will understand better how it works in Poser...

Ok I was tested everything again, come to conclusion that the HDR maps in Poser7 was fake or better was created wrong way..with only 50 % of what can be used..so not good way..

now see the same setting , but with my light that is true hdr light probe, seems the same but not inside the file..
i plug the other hdr of poser to check out and you see.... ZERO  ..mean they are fake hdr. that was just LDR converyed to HDR

:biggrin:  I am pretty familer with HDR from my own photography research, but of course will dig even further now that this can be used in Poser.   I did notice the interesting look when I loaded the full lattitude hdr & not the lightprobe into the IBL light...

It has a nice realistic blend of light, but is this the correct light since it was not an angular map/lightprobe?  I was wondering if Poser can now handle hdr files other than angular maps (like lat/long, or vertical cross cube format)  I will load the same latitude hdr in Vue & compare. 

AHHHHH!!! so that's why I was getting blacked out render when setting the contrast to zero!....hmmm. ok, let me try something based on this new info.  Once again Cath to the rescue :-)

catherine, please elaborate on the explanation in your last image - why is the top sphere illuminated, but the bottom sphere is black? I am assuming that the black sphere is not the result of leaving reflection_lite_mult checked in a render that includes a reflection channel/node.

Nice test.. Poser can't handle other formats as only Light Probe /Angular map I tested it already in Poser6 with the LDRI IBL.. before..
angular maps -  lat/long are most the same family.. the lat/long is a sphere map . sphere is used to light the poser scene.. so they have something together ..
remember you can't use any background prop it will stop the light.. make tests with shadow catcher only..
I tested all the HDR IBL light sets from poser7, a little bit drama but fine..somebody heard the bell but don't know  where it come from.. I think time for a new light sets!! lol

AT **Miss Nancy,

the top image is rendered with a true HDRI IBL and the bottom one with " Fake" HDRI IBL
this is simple sphere with not reflection or specular map..

a true HDRI IBL map have more info for the light in poser and render much more realistic renders as a fake one.. **

I made a quick research and tested even more come to conclusion that the IBL Contrast in the setting is nothing more as a Strenght what have scale in HDR images from 0,0 to 1,0, how more the IBL Contrast how lower the Luminosity and more HighLight

o.k., understood. no IBL contrast causes the 8-bit image to have no diffuse light emission, but allows the 32-bit image to function properly.

MEC4D said:

Quote - I made a quick research and tested even more come to conclusion that the IBL Contrast in the setting is nothing more as a Strenght what have scale in HDR images from 0,0 to 1,0, how more the IBL Contrast how lower the Luminosity and more HighLight

That makes sense that if the Poser HDRs are upconverted LDRs, that you would have blacked out objects with zeroed contrast. But looking at the samplet tests here. Any idea what's going on? I would think that the Devebec hdrs are true hdr & not faked.

http://www.debevec.org/Probes/

I guess I need to read this more slowly...LOL! But this is the effect I've been trying so very hard to get in my renders. More study is needed on my part Smiles

Alex send me your e-mail I will send you the new light probe of poser7 fixed with many exposures it works much better...  the hdrs are true but created only from one photo they have not that much information.. the secret here about is how more the hdr have info how better you can set the light on and more acurate, you should not touch the IBL contrast as only the intensity if the L/probe is really perfect.. set a day or night just from the one hdr, the one you use above or from poser are over exposed already.. there is not balance .. mean as you take a pictures with +2,0 EV , you should have 0.0 EV for the best balance right ?
send me the e-mail I will send you back the new thing so you can test.. :)) if you like

every hdri on my machine renders black in poser 7 with 0 ibl contrast, whether it's one of the hdri that comes with poser, whether it's one of the dosch hdri, whether it's one of the sachform hdri, or whether I convert them in photoshop cs3 using radiance or exr. apparently all of 'em are fake, or poser's implementation of hdri is incorrect, or something else. I don't wanna hafta be the one to tell dosch that their hdri are fake.

It happen to the all hdri that was not tone mapped and have low info and are over exposed, my light probe is 90 MB
created from 5 raw image files that total are 450 MB of data ... 20 MB for a hdr is very low mean not much inside.. Dosh sell own hdri for systems that works different way as Poser..

Done Cath....

Miss Nancy... I think the answer lies somewhere in between. The number of exposures / production of the HDRI images, & Poser's implementation of HDRI.

But just seeing what we've been doing past week or so excites me, & will help Poser continue to "run with the big boys"  :thumbupboth:

Sure excites me (not much does too often anymore...LOL) this is just so awesome!!

Wow, i see HDRI in P7 can achieves great results! I only have P6, so no HDRI in Poser for me :(
BTW, i use HDRI a lot in Vue6 and love it! :D

A short question beside:  If you take a photo with the mirror ball--> how do you achive that the photographer and the camera are NOT in the reflection???    And do you use only frontshots or 360°degree shots as a base for HDR ?  

Usually the photographer and stufff are cleaned out from the photo in postwork.

Vue 6 is great as well, they should mixed it with poser a long time ago would be perfect j/k...

Renderteam.. if you take a perfect picture with the right angle and position you will capture 360°degree **with one shot , I set my camera on timing and just go out of the space if possible, if not then I take next one on different angle and later by mixing i choice the points where i was not in the image the same for the camera, if you work with a software that allow you to edit also in hdr you can use clone brush to remove the camera and still keep all important info, take always pictures with 3 different exposure ( bracket step ), good cameras have it as a automatic setting..

**

1. Choice the scene you like to capture
2. don't wear any bright color clothing what will affect the scene and light
3. put in the middle your mirror ball
4. take pictures with bracket step of the mirror ball
5. remove the mirror ball and take one more shot with bracket step of the scene that you will use as a background in your poser scene
6. convert them all to hdr, crop the mirror ball out and in HDR Shop convert to Light Probe again
7. plug the hdr light probemap to the light
8. plug the background to the background shader node

:woot: Thank you very much for the explanation!! :thumbupboth:
The sun is shining here... so I'll jump out the door and catch some shots to experiment with ...

You welcome, me too, it is a beautiful day great for cool shots.. ;)

Where does one even find a mirror ball?

I think you can use a mirrored Christmas Tree bauble if you can't get a mirror ball! :)

you can buy a Gazon SS ball ( no glass one ) cost between $14 for 6 inch what is enough to catch the light ;) 12 inch is good  for a distance big scenes..

That looks great! You might find this thread useful.

Image Based Lighting and Ambient Occlusion Light Values and Research

Cheers!

Yes, thanks for the insight Anton

Nice info I am sure users would like to read it! Thanks!
that is funny you posted it cuz I spend all day on this theme regarding light and all the stuff.. i love my nerdy stuff on Sunday!! lol

---

I was testing today some things based on the real light and shadows , got even ambient occlusion colored, what i mean here is that the color surface of the model change the colors to darker in place to have the ugly grey AO shadows what set this everything in a total new light.. the most funny thing about  that the model surface ( diffuse color) was set to almost black but still everything was working as it works in nature.. the light controled the surfaces, no hard sharp textures was needed as only light diffuse colors, the bump maps, hdri and ao handle everything with amazing reality... i am still working on this article and as soon as I am done i will post online, it set the poser a little bit up-side-down but very interesting..

ohhh.... getting excited at that prospect Cath... pouring thru my own info archive too, along with insights from a few months back regarding how posers lights work (or don't work) based on reality. Adding a node to the light to correct the lights response to make it like reality. So I am looking forward to what you've discovered.  Between  my tests with your corrected probe, snapping a few raw exposures to build my on HDRIs, mapping out lighting grid for a tv shoot Tuesday night, and finishing a website for a deaf group I am involved in...I'd say I'm a busy dude LOL

That is great, you are not only the one busy here, I have to finish my new website design this week, new single mastering regarding to my new upcoming album and many many other things plus poser stuff .. between... but I love to be busy so no problemo! let's prepare some hot stuff and get back at weekend again! lol

Catharina, thanks for your responses and your work on this hdri problem. where can we learn more about your method of tone mapping of light probe photos?

You welcome **Miss Nancy
**I will have to set up new step-by-step tutorial as soon as possible regarding the maps and how they should be done correctly to work perfect with default poser settings ( I am setting up my new website for poser this week). I started working also on a super HDRI IBL, one light for all that will capture all the time from the sunrise until the sunset with a click of mouse for the quick users that have not time to waste and want fast and good effect sort of Maxim-us HDR Light lol ha ha ...work still in progress

while everyone is rendering lol, some interesting reading & experimenting in this area. Granted we seem to be entering a new area with the use of HDRI, but we're not alone in digging in light & Poserworld.
**
HDRI IBL with LDRI ( although we're seeing that ldri is becoming unnecessary)**
http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=268205

IBL Mapping in P6 & P7
http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=296010

**Not you Average IBL (Bagginsbill is a Poser Math NUT! hehe)
**http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=260819

**HDRI in P7 - anyone used it to any effect yet? (shortly after P7's arrival, still unsue of exactly how to make things work. But as we see from the above renders, there was more under the hood than meets the eye, including specular & shadow influence from the HDRI IBL)
**http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=265876

I read this some of the things there are not really correct.. and the effect of the renders are washed out and not match that well the backgrounds.. as it should be especialy with the sphere map with the west east direction are not correct.. sphere in poser is mapped correct he just use wrong proportion, all lati/longi need the be 2:1 and not 1:1 ..but fine i did the same mistake with poser6 and ibl but that was 2 years ago ;) today we got smarter! lol

Smile. yep. That's why I dug some of these out...to show the evolution, & how we've evolved from a "flat" world to one that is round...& in HDRI hehehe

Looking forward to the fruits of your labor Cath.

Ok i did this again look on and see the truth!!! that is how it works

plus forgot to add the top view of the poser scene now you see how the poser is lighted up ..pple get confused cuz of the mirror effect.. the scene in poser have always the north behind the model and the south behind us...  the end! lol

ah and that at the end , I wanna show you some test in poser7 with HDR IBL, don't think the shadows are to light, they always light up b/c the radiance coming from the stones and in this area the light is much more intensive.. the ball reflect the scene behind us the SOUTH we don't see..  what about that? ;)) the scene is in  -60 degrees west, the background pic was made around 2:30 -3 pm I made short animation with that scene looking coooool will post later this week when I finish the sound...

This has turned into a great thread thanks Catharina!

Wow Wow Cath.... & this is HDR IBL & sun/spec light?  Very nice.

You welcome!! PaganArtist :)...... thanks to Alex for starting this thread!!!

and yes Alex this is HDR IBL & sun/spec light, I still love to keep the radiance in balance without to bright it to much .. and b/c i need here very good shadows and specular that why I used the sun light as a final touch, the shadows from the sun/spec light working in harmony with HDRI IBL light up or down depended of the value..

As soon as i discovered HDRI lighting, i jumped on my keyboard to find all the free HDRI ressources i could on the web, so here are some links:

http://www.hdrimaps.com/downloads.html

http://hdri.3dweave.com/library/ here there is a lot of hdr

http://www.aversis.be/extra_hdri/00.htm they are a the top of the page

http://www.evermotion.org/index.php?unfold_exclusive=84&unfold=exclusive some hdr skies

http://www.digitalin.fr/index.php?page=goodies the link is under the teapot pictures

http://www.debevec.org/Probes/ here are some hdr light probes, but you have to unwrap them using HDRShop

http://gl.ict.usc.edu/HDRShop/ free HDRShop program, you have to fill the form to download it

http://www.hdrmill.com/Freebies.htm

http://www.spectralogue.com/textures/index.php?path=50 very great quality, some other textures also

If someone else has other links, feel free to share them, as you never have enough HDRI maps to play with ;D

Paul Debevec has some lat./long. maps too. They are higher res. than his old probes.
http://gl.ict.usc.edu/Data/HighResProbes/