Ok, if we can't be civil, the learning can end, and I can lock it.  Matter of fact, one more argumentative statement from either direction, it's locked, and I mean it.  This is a VERY informative thread, and I will use my right and privelege as a moderator to lock this thread and delete the arguments.  I've read it, and there are times when BOTH of you are right and when BOTH of you are wrong.  Quit it.

Attached Link: http://poserbagginsbill.googlepages.com/pano2.jpg

Ok here we go. Download my panorama file from the link. I'm sorry that there is a bad seam, but my panorama software does not do 360 degrees so I had to try to fit it in Photoshop.

Also, my camera does not do wide angles, so we do not have much above or below the horizon. You could not use this photo for lighting. Still it should demonstrate my point.

I took the 14 photos today on the front of my property. I live on Route 126, also known as Washington Street. You will see the sign for 126. My property is on the corner of 126 and a small road called Washington Path. You will see the sign for this road. It is blue.

Heading North on 126, if you turn left (west) onto Washington Path, you come to my house. My house is not in the photos - that is my neighbor's house in the photo. My house is behind all the trees, to the west of the camera, on the left side of Washington Path.

When I turn South, you will see a DO NOT PASS sign that is on my property. In the distance on the sidewalk, you waill also see my neighbors going out for their morning jog. They are sure they headed south, believe me. They laughed at me when I told them why I was outside my house at 7 AM turning circles and taking pictures.

Here we go.

Remember download this image (pano2.jpg) and then attach to Cath's sphere. Set her sphere to a large scale (for example 2000%). Then render from inside.

Here at home I do not have my compass props. But I inserted James in his default pose to orient you. Everyone has James, right?

This is the view facing North. Observe the 126 North sign. Observe the Washington Path sign.

My house is to our left in the West. This is with U_Scale = -1. East is to our right.

Here is the same direction with U_Scale = 1. This does not work. It is backward. When using a photo, U_Scale = -1 is correct.

If you reverse the photo first, fine you can use U_Scale = 1. I don't care where you do it, but an unaltered photo MUST be rendered with U_Scale = -1.

Here looking West. My house is behind the trees on the left.

Looking South, with U_Scale = -1. The DO NOT PASS is correct. My neighbors are in the distance.

BB and here we got a problem with, the image provided above is not a mirror panorama image for sphere map , mirror don't mean flip it horizontal in this situation.. the image you have to provide for this test should be a L/L panoramic image converted from Light Probe or a mirror ball to work it correctly so it works in harmony with the Light probe light and the image from the inside sphere...
this way the image will look correctly inside and the scene would be lighted up correct too.. use the light probe from Poser7, convert to panoramic L/L map using HDRSHop map the sphere and see..
that what I am going to do tomorrow. provide a right material for the lightprobe and sphere.

Looking South with U_Scale = 1. This is incorrect.

Looking East U_Scale = -1.

Quote - BB and here we got a problem with, the image provided above is not a mirror panorama image for sphere map , mirror don't mean flip it horizontal in this situation.. the image you have to provide for this test should be a L/L panoramic image converted from Light Probe or a mirror ball to work it correctly so it works in harmony with the Light probe light and the image from the inside sphere...
this way the image will look correctly inside and the scene would be lighted up correct too.. use the light probe from Poser7, convert to panoramic L/L map using HDRSHop map the sphere and see..
that what I am going to do tomorrow. provide a right material for the lightprobe and sphere.

 

I don't have to provide anything other than an unaltered photograph. This was my point from the beginning. I don't understand why you keep arguing. I was very clear on my words.

Using a photograph - directly - unaltered - the shows the true viewpoint from the camera as it actually happened. All the other things you talk about are not what I was talking about. 

Again, do not discuss lighting yet.

I will say again.

How to map an unaltered photograph onto your sphere? U_Scale = -1.

I have never claimed anything else. An unaltered photograph. Every time you argued you were assuming that somebody already reversed the image. This is what I'm talking about. If you go out and take a photograph, you do NOT need to edit or alter the photograph. Set U_Scale = -1.

My goodness, this is difficult.

Forgot East picture.

Again, I"m reading your words and wondering if you read mine. I do not have any problem making lighting match a panorama. U_Scale = -1. I do not need HDRSHOP - I can convert the panorama to angular map in the material room.

I told you this yesterday. People can make their own panorama with cheap cameras. Then we make lights. First get the picture right. Then we make lights. Over and over we go around and around. 

Make the picture right. Then we make lights.

I am not discussing lights. You keep saying I will get the lights wrong. I will not get the lights wrong. I know how to make the lights right no matter what the panorama is. The panorama is the true scene. We do not make the panorama from mirror ball. We make angular map from panaorama. Ok? Jeesh.

That is how you should map the sphere, this is not flipped horizontal.. this is true mirror image of the scene.. as it would be after you convert it from a silver ball..reflection after you put this on the sphere everything would works right..so the texts etc... do not change the UV_Scale that not only flip the map horizontal but also change the directions..and that is not a mirror image

ldr..

You both seem to be trying to do the same thing 2 different ways, will the end result be convincing?  In the end when the scene is rendered (lights, maps, etc) whose scene will be correct?

Quote - That is how you should map the sphere, this is not flipped horizontal.. this is true mirror image of the scene.. as it would be after you convert it from a silver ball..reflection
after you put this on the sphere everything would works right..so the texts etc... do not change the UV_Scale that not only flip the map horizontal but also change the directions..and that is not a mirror image

 

Yes it is a mirror image - you are trying to make me crazy.

This is why I keep telling you that math matters and you don't know the math apparently.

Flip horizontally = (U_Scale = -1) = MIRROR IMAGE. 

They are different words for the same thing.

OH MY GOD

All along you've been arguing without ever saying in plain words that you think you have to mirror the image first outside Poser. You never said that. You kept saying my map is wrong. You just said it again.

And I've been arguing that you don't have to mirror it first, I can mirror it in Poser. And I can make the angular map in Poser and I can mirror that too.

And when we finally all understand that and stop arguing, then I will give you a prop and shaders that will take photos DIRECTLY, without preparing them at all. They can be HDRI or multiple LDRI and I will do the right thing. This is my point, which you keep ignoring over and over. I have math to take away all the preparation you do. There is no need to do all this mirroring and flipping and converting.

We agree it has to be mirrored - we do not agree on where you should do it. You say I have to do it outside Poser. I say I can do it in Poser or outside Poser and it makes more sense to do it in Poser. But if you want to do extra steps and not use my technology, so be it. We will have the same picture, but I will make mine in less time. I will use raw photographs. I will not even compose them. You understand? I can do all the composition and tone mapping and mirroring in Poser shaders.

This is where I'm trying to go, but you keep arguing and arguing and arguing that my picture is wrong and so my technique must be wrong. My picture is NOT WRONG. My MAP is NOT WRONG. My technique is NOT WRONG. 

God, I'm ready to explode. Face_off warned me to stay out. I think he was right.

I've explained this over and over and over and you're just not getting it.

I give up.

No you will get not wrong your light after you change the UV scale of both map and the light probe  that is correct, one only thing wrong would be that the scene would not match the standard direction in poser scene that is all about...  I just wanna keep the direction as it was design for in poser and other software based on the earth directions and that is very important for me.. you got confused by the mirror image and that why you have issues with that.. what's again is not a flipped image
horizontal..

if you look yourself in the mirror you see flipped image of your face ?, are the window reflected in the mirror still on the same side or it flip to other side ? do you know function of a mirror ? I guess not other you will understand what I said and my dear you lost the battle here..

Quote - You both seem to be trying to do the same thing 2 different ways, will the end result be convincing?  In the end when the scene is rendered (lights, maps, etc) whose scene will be correct?

 

Yes boeing, yes thank you. We are producing the same images, but Cath thinks mine are wrong somehow. They're exactly the same.

If one makes the lighting file from the 'backdrop' file, wouldn't it be better to reverse the viewing file somehow (as BB hints can be done) instead of setting the U to -1? That way the lighting file does not have to have a U= -1 either.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - my dear you lost the battle here..

 

Cath this is pathetic. My renders of my neighborhood are accurate and done exactly as I describe. You do not make sense. You insist I am doing something wrong, yet my renders are exactly the same as reality.

You contradict yourself, and now claim victory. Why do you need to claim victory. I make no claims to victory I simply tell you that is what my damn neighborhood actually looks like.  Yet you INSIST on saying I'm doing something wrong. Enough already.

Ah ah BB i know it would be like that... I just was sure you know about that...
that why we doing that this way... you see regarding to the UV on the sphere and the seams... I mapped the sphere that would accept a mirrored panoramas from the mirror balls that user are going to do, make this job more simple for them all ... just click transfer and work is done...I did my job correct telling you all the time you use wrong maps for your sphere and you don't wanna listen to me..
I told you simple is beautiful and sometimes a simple way based on the real world and rules is working faster and better so why make it all so complicated..

make a picture of a mirror ball > convert to L/L sphere map in HDR SHOP > and after that convert to Light Probe, load into poser and render your scene with all right directions and light withut even to open photoshop... so simple is that so hard to understand ?

Wow, this is a very interesting post though!  Its like two great superpowers duking it out.  :)

How about you both create an exact scene using maybe BB's panoramic view there and BB can do his magic in Poser and Cath can do hers with her method and lets see how the final product looks rendered.  It sounds like BB is saying he can use his standard pano shot today inside of poser using the math nodes to do the work that Cath might do using other software.  I have a funny feeling this ends with exactly the same result, just different working methods.  You both offer a wealth of info to this community, and I think we can all agree we're all learning as we go along these threads...Gosh knows I am.

Afterwards we all go out and get a beer!

I think what BB is trying to say is that he has a way so you can take the picture, load it into poser and render the scene. How simple is that? Your insistance that your right and everyone else is wrong is why I gave up on this thread quite some time ago.

 

Cath you just go ahead. I undrestand now. You only know how to use photoshop, not math shaders.

It's ok, I will not try to explain to you how I save time by doing no HDRSHOP work at all. You do not have to use my technology. You go ahead and do everything by hand.

I told you already that with my prop and my shaders you can load real photos immediately from your own house or yard. You seem to want to do it the "artist" way. You do not accept that my results are identical. I understand. It does me no good to show you pictures of reality. They must be wrong.

Go ahead and make yours however you like.

Victory ? come on I just doing things for simple pple..not for prove you anything who is better or whatever, you are mastering your sections I do my things but on total different ways so let's don't go in conflicts , b/c the final work would be correct in both situation and I just make my things a little bit more simple for the end user ..
I have much respect for your work and how you do that so do your things I am not going between it Mat is not my section.. so you do the same and we are happy now and forever

Ok ENOUGH.

I warned, apparently, you guys either can't read ONLY MY posts, or you both choose to ignore.

YOU ARE BOTH COMING TO THE SAME CONCLUSION FROM A DIFFERENT PATH.  You guys are coming VERY VERY close to making me pre-empitvely close the post because you can't take 2 seconds to realise that you're saying VERY similar things BOTH OF YOU and are arguing that the other one's doing it wrong.

I'm locking it for the night.  If I feel charitable to the REST of the community, I'll unlock it when I get up in the a.m. This is a valuable thread, and I will NOT have it gone the way of the Dodo just because you guys can't chill.

Ok, unlocked for now.  Let's REALLY keep it civil.

Thanks

Jeni

Thank You Jeni

Lots of :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: for all OK?

Lets all head toward the light.... ;-)

I've read this whole thread and have come to a conclusion about the problem with the starting images between BB and Cath.

BB is starting with a 'regular' photograph or image whereas Cath is starting with an image of a mirrored reflection which has to be flipped horizontally. If you take a picture of a mirror of course you have to flip it to get a 'regular' image. You both are right in what you are doing; the problem is with the starting image!

:thumbupboth: PilotHigh

There are other issues with mapping images for backgrounds, but you hit the nail on the head :biggrin:

Attached Link: Real-time conversion of Panoramic images to Angular Map in Poser

Please visit a new thread if you like.

I demonstrate the rotating IBL with synchronized environment sphere. You can flip it or not flip it as you see fit. If you think the photo is already flipped, then don't flip it. If you know you made the photo yourself, then flip it. If you find that typing a "-" sign is more work than loading the image into HDRSHOP or Photoshop, flipping it, and then saving it, feel free. 

If you feel that loading the image into HDRSHOP, using it to convert to angular map, and saving it is less work than just loading it straight into Poser with my shader, feel free.

Either way, HDRSHOP or Poser can do the work.

Ok, so finally had the time to spend a day on this.

I don't have an expensive camera to do this stuff with. I don't have a mirror ball or the photoshop skill to remove myself from it, so I thought maybe I will give it a go BB's way.

I got stuck.

So I came back and downloaded Cath's file, opened it up, looked around the materials room.

I got stuck again.

Would either of you be so kind as to create a tutorial for this? If you already have one, and I missed it during the slugfest, I apologize.

There is a lot of great info here, as others have said, I just wish I could put it together in my head.

Are you asking about how to stitch all those photos together? That's software that came with my "cheap" Canon point-and-shoot - nothing fancy. The software is called PhotoStitch. 

Basically you stand in one spot. Put the camera in panoramic mode. Take a picture. Then it shows you your first picture on the left side of the screen. You turn right and sort of line up the new viewpoint (doesn't have to be exact) then shoot again. Repeat as many times as you want. Then you load the pictures into your computer, and run PhotoStitch on them. It already knows which ones go together and in what order. Hit GO. Done. Save as JPEG.

Sorry I can't help with a more manual approach - I rely on that software.

I then loaded the new panorama into photoshop. I resized it because it was 28000 pixels wide. I reduced it to 6000 pixels wide (if I recall correctly - maybe it was 3000). Then I made the canvas size to half that so it was 2-to-1 ratio and saved it. This I then loaded onto the sphere, with U_Scale = -1. As we all now understand I could have first flipped it in photoshop, but regardless it works either way.

Warangel if you don't have a digital camera just search the google for hdri sphere maps and there are plenty for free to play with including Lightprobes, load it into the sphere prop as you do with your other textur maps scale the prop from 5.000 to 20.000 add the IBL light to the scene and done..
the prop I uploaded was not ready to use with one click or even scaled. it was just mapped for tests we did.. i will upload something nice soon and complete with everything but I am still not finished with.. you should play a bit with bagginsbill inovation, this was really cute... read good and follow the screen..that was not really so complicated to follow..

I was really trying to follow. I have a digital camera. The things that were confusing me is that I really don't know what to do with materials.

I put everything to 127 127 127. Blinn shaders, and all that other talk, no idea what it means.

I even figured out how to get Photoshop CS3 to make the HDR for me. 

Guess I'll just wait for that tutorial Cath. I really want to understand this HDR stuff. Your images are phenomenal, both of you. I want that quality of work.

The 127 127 127 is the middle color of the grey  scale of red, this is  in the middle between the white and black color , that set up the model surface this way that the HDR Light probe you use to light up the scene will not expose the textures you rendering on your model, this way you can change the intensity of the HDR IBL light up and down and have always a nice effect in your renders as I do always in mine.. the green for example would be a green and not turn into yellow or fade out in bad way.. you can compare the bad effect to exposed to much to light pictures.. for example if you make a real picture sometimes the sky is so bright almost white but only on your picture b/c as you remember the sky was blue for real.. thanks to HDR you can balance the image and show it as it was for real... a true high dynamic hdr images are composed from minimal 26 images that are made with different F-stop to get the 99% effect as we see with our eyes in real world, this capture the true light and shadows into one image..and after that we can use it to light the scenes to get more realistic renders.. if you wanna make a own hdr for light probe to use in poser7, you should use minimal 3 photos of your mirror ball wih different exposure, most of the cameras today have this setting automatic, so one click and you are done.. after that you can work in photoshop CS3 and merge them together crop out the ball from the final hdr image and ready to use in poser.. this way your background photo you load into poser scene will match the light in your scene and blend the models into the 2d world.. this is the simple way if you work with photos to capture the light... if you have not true mirror ball use just a silver christmas ball ... look at the pic above,  that was made the way I say..

see above image , how it works ..

Ok Cath. Those two parts now make sense. Gonna have to see if my camera does that auto stepping exposure thing, and get me a Christmas ball.

Can you tell me about reflections in Poser please? How would I get my materials to reflect the HDR I have imported? I tried using the Add Reflection thing in the material room, but I must've messed it up.

Again, sorry to sound stupid. I'm not really, just having a really hard time getting around this new idea. I mean, you, BB, Fabriced, others, I love the HDR stuff and want people to look at my work and go ooo ahhh like I do.

Here about the IBL Contrast and how it works

here is the most simple way.. this will turn your material to sort of an mirror, silver etc.. make a test put a ball in the scene set the shader node like above and remember to set your rendering setting b/c if you don't use Raytracing  there would be not rendered any reflections in your scene... set rendering to Final and everything would be fine :)

sorry here is how to :)

Ok thanks. Going to give this a try. Be prepared for the worst example of HDR yet :P

Warangel, Just take your time & remember the Area Render  is your friend ;-) I'm sure it will come out better than you think 

Ok, anyone want to go to the disco?

Been searching the internet for "mirror ball" and I keep getting disco balls as results. Those probably won't work :P

Looked on every photo store site I know. None have mirror balls.

I found some Victorian Gazing Globe thing at a garden store, but not sure that is what I want either.

Can someone please help me find a place to buy a mirror ball in Ontario?

I can't help with with searching in Ontario but well the Gazing Globe balls are what we searching for, pay attention that they are not from glass and have not holes inside.. the best are 6 inch max 12 inch but the last one is very huge so 6 inch are the best.. I just ordered for myself 4 and 6 inch from better qaulity and nice price, the max price for 6 inch is between $14,00  to max $19,00 so watch out the prices they are huge in some stores even to $ 220 for small Gazing ball..
I have a link to a store with a cheap price and a very good quality "mirror balls" but have not the link under my hand i will post a little later today so check out..they shipping also worldwide...
I ordered many styles of the mirror balls in the past but was not so happy with the qaulity at all, in between you can play with a christmas silver ball ... :)

Here I come to saye the daaaayyy!! ( everyone remembers Mighty Mouse right?.... showing my age here lol)

http://www.sundialworld.com/ssgazingglobes.htm 

Cath is right, they have the lowest prices on the net & they will ship to Canada

:biggrin:

In the meantime, search out some of the free HDR's available on the net, & HDRshop V1.0 os available for a free download. So you have everything you need right at your fingertips

Great link!
I was also going to say, you may want to check out local Walmarts or other Superstore-style stores who are clearancing out Lawn Decor.  Our walmart was selling them for $2 on clearance last week, and, needless to say, they're all gone.  :lol:  Or maybe even look at closing Garden Centers or anything like that ;)

Ok, so I will have to make my own stand setup? I thought there was some "official" photo mirror ball type thing with stand. I am so lazy.

No, you can usually buy a cheap stand ;)  You probably wouldn't have to spend more than $40 on the whole project if you shop around ;)

Thank you Alex... you just show up on right time... I was hopping as well for :) today my new mirror balls  are here so I will tell you all what is the quality this time so wait with the orders until tonight, from the product description they was well done I hope so ...I cross my fingers and wait excited.. the most of the Gazing Ball surface have a little strange deformation b/c they are hand made.. the new one I ordered was high polished and nice done.. you know a little deformation on the surface can put the light total in a wrong direction so the lightprobes can be used only for Diffuse HDRLight what is nice also but hard to match with the background... I tested the size of the lightprobe 250x250 and 500x500 made not difference at all but with resolution 500x500 the rendering was just slower... one more thing, when you import LDR image to the HDRshop and it ask for the Display Curve of your camera choice 1,0  it will looks bright but after your export it to hdr the contrast will get back to normal..then you can use the lightprobe.hdr direct with your background without to spend time on setting the intensity and IBL Contrast... and if still not match just remember that Intensity is the Direct illumination ( light from the sun ) and the IBL Contrast is the indirect Illumination colored-light reflected from the objects and blue sky, how higher the IBL Contrast how lower the indirect illumination mean the colors will fade out to grey..

I made for you something yesterday, pls remember that I used HDR Tone mapped Lightprobe with 7 exposures , how more photos you use to merge how more you can get from the Light Probe, you need minimal 3.. max 26 photos...
I read yesterday about a HDR MAP that was made using special HDR automatic 50 Megapixels camera, the final photo was 800 MB.. I can only imagine the quality of the sphere map, the best thing was that the camera did this everything automatic, just one click ... a dream that would never come true..