point taken.! it's just I hang out in chat a lot and the pirates are, i think, making a sport of it. take the latest loser - something-2K - he came straight into chat and in his first 2 statements stated he had a pirate copy of lightwave! and (i have no proof, and i could be wrong) i'm convinced he was shindler1 - who was banned last week. fortunately for all it's not for me to decide :-) if it was i'd track these (expletives deleted) down and break all their windows, be that 95, 98 2k, Me etc