For an application the is flamed by so many pros why is it that almost all of the apps out there have a way of importing Poser models :biggrin:

Just a thought.

Because the people who "flame poser" are users not developers of a particular apps
import/export features and who says everyone Flaming poser in some web forum is a "pro"

Besides Poser can export its model to standard 3D format like .obj files
Most pro apps could use .obj files long before poser figures became well known.

Quote - almost all of the apps out there have a way of importing Poser models

Actually, sad to say, poser doesn't support the most popular file transfer format currently (COLLADA.)

And no 'pro' (as in someone who actually makes money using 3D) ever flames anyone or anything on a public forum. It's only the "thinks they're pro" or the "impress the ladies by burning others" types that do this. When you have a deadline and a client looking over your shoulder, you use everything including the kitchen sink to get your work done fast. Poser can be a big help in this.

I've critisized Poser before but, guess what, I still use it as my preferred 3D application for what I want to do.
For what it's designed to do, it does it quite well.

Poser may export obj files of its content to other applications, but Poser didn’t invent the obj. format. It isn't correct to claim that other application support Poser imports just because they import objs. The obj. originated with Maya, if I recall correctly.

"obj" file format came from Alias Wavefronts Power Animator wayyyyyyyy back when...  well before Maya.

Gerard

they're not flaming it due to the models IMVHO. they're flaming it due to the default renders that get posted by the millions all over the web.

Two things:
The pro's 'flaming Poser' is more of a myth then the truth.
Not everyone that has a high end application is a pro.

80% of Poser art is hideous beyond belief. A bad reputation follows. This is a side effect of giving the "power of art" to the masses.

Quote - 80% of Poser art is hideous beyond belief. A bad reputation follows. This is a side effect of giving the "power of art" to the masses.

A bit harsh, I know. Would you believe I was pulling my punch?

Quote - 80% of Poser art is hideous beyond belief.

A total understatement!! :blink:

As in beauty, art is in the eye of the beholder. Some people I believe intentionally go out of their way to hurt our eyes & our intelliegence, LOL.

I'm tired & I'm feeling cruel.

Regardless of all the flames and such, Poser by far is the easiest to set characters and scenes at a decent amount of time.

I mean look at Haloid and Dead Fantasy by Monty Oum, His fan work is great, and he is doing it for a hobby but regardless people still put him down.

He is totally great because of the fact that he put aside his time to entertain us, While the so called "pros" can't do any better.

And also see sig

Ouch storm!!!!!!   LOLZ!!  Art is so darned subjective that somebody's render with V3 with default face and in the "zeroed" arms outstretched position could be as good as Van Gogh's Starry Night over the Rhone to them...  I mean my gallery is not at all indicative of what I use poser for...  my gallery here is a self indulgent piece of poo!!  Subject matter is totally sexist but I like to think I light well!!  LOLZ!!!  Point is the statements you and Paloth are unfair...  and any noobs that may read this may get totally turned off of the community here and folks could start thinking that Renderosity is just as bad as the elitist high end users at CGSociety etc....  Maybe I'm being over sensitive...  probably am...  tired too!!

Gerard

ghelmer - No, you're right. I was being cruel & unfair. I think we've all created bad pieces of art at some point, I know I have. I think the beauty of Poser is that it is so easy to pick up & create something with it. Most users will be hobbyists & get great enjoyment out of it. I actually don't like the way Poser users are frowned upon, most make art for fun & personal satisfaction. Some work created with this great program have been amazing. The so called 'Pros' should leave alone & do what they do.

Because lots of people think that tool like Poser ,talent like creative person and occupation like pro are the same thing

here's my penny... 1st thought - you have something which is 'better than nothing'. does that necessarily mean that you have something 'good'? 2nd thought - let's say, i have a product on the market and everybody is happy with it. should i change it? improve it? why should i? peeps like it as it is... ...the fact that we still have the same joint-crap for what must be almost a decade by now leads accordingly to one simple conclusion: we, the users, did not give poser enough 'flaming'!

Quote - 80% of Poser art is hideous beyond belief. A bad reputation follows. This is a side effect of giving the "power of art" to the masses.

A well known author - I think it was Philip K Dick -  was approached at a convention and told by a critic, "90 percent of Science Fiction is crap".

To which the author replied "90 percent of anything is crap".

Re: Poser and pro users. Here's the deal. Currently in the building where I work there are more than a few pro gfx artists who supplement a sister group of mine, and feed the never-ending appetites of way too many 3d OpenGL and DX programmers. We got Maya, Modo, 3DS Max R-everything.... and Poser sits among the pile. I got DAZ|Studio to sit in there (most never knew it existed). The pro artists don't give a rat's arse about the app used - so long as the formats translate (and we got tools by the bucketload for that). Just recently, I got to see a dynamic hair demo that works in friggin' realtime, including wind and gravity effects, with changeable heads (male and female), hair styles and textures, and full collision detection. It was coded in-house. You move the head and the hair simply reacts. No waiting. The box it ran on wasn't anything beyond a simple low-end Core2Duo w/ about 2GB of RAM, and that wasn't the only app running. You'll likely have to wait until Poser version #40 before that happened on the low-end. And yet I get pestered about Poser, D|S, and assorted bits and bobs that I've picked up (as long as it doesn't clash with the NDAs I've signed at previous employers, no prob). They're wanting another code-monkey (but this time one who can actually do some artwork as well), and damnit, I'm sorely tempted. OTOH, compared to some of these guys I'm a friggin' novice. So are the vast, vast majority of folks in here. I'd say that bagginsbill, LittleDragon, and perhaps a handful of others at the most could last more than five minutes in the joint. ....and none of 'em describe Poser as anything but "just another tool", with the caveat that some do wish it did full skeletal rigging instead of joints. No put-downs, no "hobbyist" slander, nothing of the sort. HTH a little to describe what the real CG pros think of the thing, /P

***"they're not flaming it due to the models IMVHO.
they're flaming it due to the default renders that get posted by the millions
all over the web."

"Two things:
The pro's 'flaming Poser' is more of a myth then the truth.
Not everyone that has a high end application is a pro."***

Quoting MIss Nancy & Conniekat8 for complete agreement!!!

There  seems to be a Subtle "Siege mentality" among many poser
users that the So called "pros" have this endless hatred for them.
I  honestly dont see it.
But the endless parade of Nekkid and semi Nekkid
"V" Chick worshippers along with the persistant and  blatant Soft porn on the front page if this website
Does not help matters.

shrug

As far as lousy Poser 'art' is concerned -- true, it's there.  And we all had to start somewhere.  Even the best of us weren't born with a Wacom tablet stuffed in our mouths.  And while it's also true that some people simply have gobs more native talent than others will ever have -- such is life.  That doesn't mean that the weekend golfers can't enjoy their time on the course just as much as the pros do -- or that they should just give up trying & go away because they don't manage to hit a 65-or-less game every time (like the Big Boys do).

As for the "look-down-the-nose" attitude on the part of some towards Poser users -- I've seen it enough to know that it's there, and that it's real.  Such attitudes can be even worse when they are so accepted as the normal state of affairs that those harboring the attitudes aren't even aware of the fact that they have them.  By no means would all "pros" fall into such a category -- most of them are probably too busy to notice.

Hmmmmm.......I suspect that much of the casual anti-Poser attitudes that I've so clearly seen displayed elsewhere (a casual attitude exemplified by the CG Society member whose avatar says "Have Poser, will travel") -- perhaps such attitudes tend to come from wannabes, as opposed to "True Pros".  Whoever those "true pros" are.......when it comes to 3D (and art in general) -- I haven't quite managed to figure out who those people are yet.  I have to admit that this thinking on my part has gotten me into hot water in the past.  Because I didn't agree with the assumption on the part of certain others that they were as smugly superior to everyone else as they knew in themselves that they were.  Such people tend to become highly annoyed by uppity types who don't go along with their thinking in regards to themselves -- point out their thinking to them: and they can become enraged.

The root of the problem comes in when one tends to regard oneself as a member of an exclusive club -- sneering at the little people with their noses pressed against the glass outside, looking in pathetically at us smart people sittin' pretty on the inside.

Sure -- on occasion: someone is actually as good as they think that they are.  The difficulty arises when they let others know the fact via casual assumptions of superiority -- or through simple displays of unconscious contempt -- displays of which the perpetrator is not even remotely aware.......viewing it in their own minds as merely stemming from the natural reality of the situation.

There are "real pros" in nearly every field of endeavor.  And those "real pros" keep in mind the fact that they are human.  That's a tough idea for some to swallow -- while others reject it outright.

The 'rejectors' often eventually end up on the evening news in one capacity or another.  While others feel the disaster of pride going before a fall only in their personal lives.  But I'm straying from the central point here.

Yes -- some "pros" (whether really real pros, or just pros in their own minds) despise Poser and Poser users........while other "pros" take the correct tack and regard Poser as merely being another 3D tool.  Perhaps they are in the majority.  One would hope.

Hey XENOPHONZ!

How's it going?  I agree completely.  I've seen people tear each other apart over using Max instead of Maya.  LOL!

I would hope that everyone who read my comment would assume that they're part of the 20% of Poser art that doesn't suck.

Quote - I would hope that everyone who read my comment would assume that they're part of the 20% of Poser art that doesn't suck.

:lol: :m_thumbu:

Quote - Hey XENOPHONZ!

How's it going?  I agree completely.  I've seen people tear each other apart over using Max instead of Maya.  LOL!

Hey, Pat!  Yeah -- everybody needs somebody to look down upon.  We can't feel good about ourselves without that.

Hi Paloth

Don't worry about it.  You know,  I'm still trying to convince some of my artist friends that digital art is art!

Cheers
Pat

Definitely an ego trip.  You know that's why I lurked for so long.  Shoot!  I remember the days when people with windows 95 were "Persona non grata" in the newsgroups.

You don't use Windows 95, do you? :m_shocked:

:m_wink:

Quote - I would hope that everyone who read my comment would assume that they're part of the 20% of Poser art that doesn't suck.

Well, I hope I'm honest enough to know when I've made an image that's not up to par and to not take offence if others point out where there's room for improvement.

Quote - You know,  I'm still trying to convince some of my artist friends that digital art is art!

Now this is an argument that'll go on for sometime. You'll never convince some 2D artists that digital art is 'art'. Some think that because we use a computer (& we don't make the tools we use) that we have in some way cheated to produce the final image.

I'm a member of Quickdraw Animation Society (Calgary Alberta) and we were getting into 3D a couple years ago, and I was invited to participate in the planning stages... like, what package would we buy.  There was the Maya Guys, the Softimage Group, The Lightwave Camp, the 3DS Bunch and myself.  All the parties were boasting on how superior their packages were and why QAS should invest huge gahoolies of cash into their software of choice.  When It came to me I said, "Poser would be a good introductory package to learn basic animation, modeling and such.."  They scoffed, they laughed, they derided Poser until I asked "And how much animation had you done using these packages?"  Only one person had done any animation (please remember that Quickdraw is an animation society)... in Maya and had been working on a short piece for about a year.
QAS went with Maya, I bought P6, installed it on a computer for my own use, and everybody is happy.  I teach Basic Poser to people that want to learn.... the people that wanted the High End packages..... no where to be seen.
but that's just me!

Digital Art is not an Art? I never heard of that before, Art is art regardless of what tools are being used.

Digital Photography is Art, Photoshop Users are artists, 3D Modelers are artists.

They way that these people think astounds me, how can they call themselves true artists?

This theme has been around the block a few times, but once again I'll throw in my two cents (or more, depending!).

Again, let me put on my kevlar, I'll probably need it.

The poser flame wars really come about because poser is affordable to the general masses.  Yes, Lil' Mikey over there who always wanted to make "way cool comic/videogame/cgi art, can ask mom or dad for it for christmas and its not outrageous.

If maya, or carrera, or others were in the same ball park price range, trust me, you'd see a heck of a lot more "crap" come out of those, trust me.  Why?  Simple my dear watson.

The more affordable, the more attainable, the more hands its in.  Yes, those with and WITHOUT a modicum of artistic talent.  Yes, thats right, a whole slew of users who want to make art, but likely failed art class (lumped in with those who didnt!).

Poser is also fairly easy to learn, click, hit a pose in the pose file,  choose an outfit, click conform to, not exactly rocket science (though it was foreign to me at first, it didnt take long).  Give this tool, or any other like it to someone who cuts off heads taking photographs....... and its a disaster.

Affordable and in everyone's hands........ the misery begins.  Now, wether hobbiest or something more, poser probably has the highest rate of "lack of improvement" of any art medium out there.  People who cant draw or paint usually stop trying at some point, but oh no, not poser users!   You can all argue if you desire, but you've all seen it.   The cruel cruel disasters of:

Sun is on the left, their light source is coming from the right........ 
Head portrait zoomed in from default pose......
Naked V3 because they ran out of clothing options..... everyone's used it before.
Gravity defyment - (fill in the blanks here, i know you've all seen it in various forms)
Michael Zen pose........ need I say more?
way huge landscape long background, head or figure waaaaaaaaay to the side

Now when we all started we're all guilty of this, and more!  The difference is over time, and with use, there is some expected (and usual) amount of improvement.  But just how the Kid that can't draw those cool anime figures continues making the same one doodle he can actually draw (or copy) with some form of confidence, ...... that same user will use poser, in the same way, and make the same mistakes every time.

No matter the medium, you either got it, or you dont.   Sadly for poser, there's a lot of don'ts.

Sun is on the left, their light source is coming from the right........ Head portrait zoomed in from default pose...... Naked V3 because they ran out of clothing options..... everyone's used it before. Gravity defyment - (fill in the blanks here, i know you've all seen it in various forms) Michael Zen pose........ need I say more? way huge landscape long background, head or figure waaaaaaaaay to the side Let's not forget the V3/V4 zombie with the vacant, expressionless stare, like a corpse stretched into a seductive pose by a psychopath. (There I go, making friends again.) Not the work of any of the good readers in this forum, I'm sure. We know where the expression dials are located.

11/7/07

My photography professor in college, oh so many years ago now when we used film, told our class, "with skill you can take good photographs, but there is one essential secret to taking great photographs; take thousands of them; a few have to be great."

If the high-end applications cost $100.00 and had ultra-cheap (even free) content, there would be thousands of bad renders posted on the web produced by the big name programs. It is a staggering assumption (by expert or amateur) to think that just because people use expensive applications that they are great CG artists, or because someone uses Poser that he/she can't do great work. A great painter could probably produce masterpieces with a dog-hair brush and mud coloured with food dye.

I am just a hobbyist, and I can’t afford to feed and raise a dozen rendering applications. I have a full-time day job in health care and don’t have time to learn how to make my own models and other content. I like Poser, and I still haven’t learned a thousandth of what it can do. I haven’t done thousands of renders yet either, so I haven’t found a few good ones to post yet. I do have a lot of fun using the program though. I also enjoy seeing what others (from novice to pro) have learned to do, and seeing what most of the members of the forum have to say.

Humans have this wonderful capacity to take mundane things (clay, stone, pigmented lacquer, metal, wood, drums, voices, movements of the arms and legs, words, etc.) and create something aesthetic with these. We call that art. It would be truly inconceivable (and inhuman) if people did not find a way to use computers to create art.

LMK

For me it matters not what tool is used and that you keep you mind creative and full of dreams. I have seen great works created with a stick as the paint brush and dirt as the canvas.

I think that if a person who is not or can not be creative with no other form of media other then Poser and starts off only rendering a character in the default position with default lighting and is brave enough to show the world what they did should be applauded but with due care to help them better thier understanding of the media they chose to use.

Maybe "flame Poser" was to strong a word but I have read and participated in post on other forum where other users would claim that anything created in this app was garbage and no creative talent went in to the creation of the picture. I disagree I have seen many talented artist over the years bloom, some Poser only artist and others that have moved on.

Remember if it wasn't for the mainstream apps like Poser, Bryce, Raydream and others many of us would not have ventured into this form of media.

Congratulations to those who dream and do, and for those that dream....do.

The difference between a photographer and a Poser artist is that a photographer has all of reality to aim and click at. A Poser artist has the Poser content and whatever he or she can add to the mix. It's a much more deliberate and planned creative process with a more limited palette.

11/7/07

"a photographer has all of reality to aim and click at"

Conceptually, Poser is a cross between a movie stage and a photographic studio. Therefore, using Poser to produce art is very comparable to working in a photographic studio. Granted, the virtual cameras and lighting in Poser are way more sophisticated than anything I could have used in college or afford now. On these forums, many experienced Poser artists suggest that novices get a good book on studio photography to learn about composition, lighting, focal length, lens aperture, shutter speed, etc..

When I worked in the college’s photographic studio, I would try for hours to get the lighting, background, objects or models positioned just right, and look at everything from many angles, all before I ever touched the camera’s shutter. In Poser, I can make the glass vase look like hammered copper, decide which objects will cast shadows, and alter the thousands of variables in ways I never could with a camera. Work in a photography studio and in Poser are both very contrived, but Poser is much more versatile. And, in Poser I can save an unfinisted scene to work on later.

Even when one points and clicks to take pictures in "all of reality," the photographic artist must make many decisions. One still composes the picture by choosing where to stand, what time of day to take the picture, waiting for the right conditions, and what settings to use on the camera. I think that Poser art and photography have a lot of similarities. The big difference is that Poser is completely virtual.

LMK

In one thread I compared using poser to "playing with dolls, and taking a picture", no, it wasn't recieved too well.
It's true that our "dolls" are very maluable and have extensive wardrobes, and Poser provides a myriad of other variables to manipulate a scene, but I recon the analogy still holds.
No offence to Poser users intended, I'm one myself.
Silent Man is an example of great 3D work, made from scratch by a true professional with high-end applications.
But I've aslo seen unbelievabley beautiful renders from P4 users with basic content.
What am I trying to say here?

Following lkendall, I think the case for photography as analogous to 3D apps is even more telling.

Consider someone who purchases that $2000 pro camera with the $10,000/piece lenses but has no real expertise or experience.  This is akin to someone who is new to 3D CG buying Maya Unlimited - same difference.  All of the lenses in the world can't make a great photographer - only skill can.  With a 2-foot long telephoto lens, it may be difficult to get your thumb in the picture - but I'll bet it has happened! ;)

Quote - You know,  I'm still trying to convince some of my artist friends that digital art is art!

Oh yeah.
I've never concerned myself with the "art" thing, because I just don't consider myself an Artist, and have NEVER claimed to be one TTBOMK.  I'm just a tech, with maybe a (very) little artistic vision.
A while back i was helping to put together 3D models for a fanfilm, and to give some idea of scale I used a kaylee morphed figure that I grabbed over at Daz forums (it's pretty good, BTW).
I posted a few renders up to the Top Secret Project Site without comment except for "this is the 3D set i'm working on, with a Kaylee figure for scale".
Within 24 hours I had 3 diatribes from 3 different project members complaining of my posting crap poser art, why poser was in every way inferior to everything else ever created, and I shouldn't call myself an Artist. My replies, pointing out that I never called myself an artist or that what I posted was "Art", elicited even longer diatribes.
I've seen this attitude a lot, ever since Poser Pro.
My opinion is that an Artist is an Artist, regardless of the medium. Someone who is not an artist is not an artist, regardless of the medium. Artistic ability and mastery of your tools results in Art.

Quote - A well known author - I think it was Philip K Dick -  was approached at a convention and told by a critic, "90 percent of Science Fiction is crap".

To which the author replied "90 percent of anything is crap".

Just for the general edification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law

Quote - > Quote - A well known author - I think it was Philip K Dick -  was approached at a convention and told by a critic, "90 percent of Science Fiction is crap".

To which the author replied "90 percent of anything is crap".

 

Just for the general edification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_law

Ah, Theo.  Thanks for that.

very interesting topic here and one i've heard a few dozen times. since Tiari and Ikendall already said what i thought about the subject, i'll just add by saying "it is not the tool one uses but how one use the tool". i have seen so many huffing and puffing and flexing epeens from those who uses high end 3d app but very few can construct a decent scene to showcase their "creation".

Quote - In one thread I compared using poser to "playing with dolls, and taking a picture", no, it wasn't recieved too well.

Last time I was in New York City, I saw a bunch of people in Central Park who were busy posing and photographing home-made gothic dolls.

Quote - very interesting topic here and one i've heard a few dozen times. since Tiari and Ikendall already said what i thought about the subject, i'll just add by saying "it is not the tool one uses but how one use the tool". i have seen so many huffing and puffing and flexing epeens from those who uses high end 3d app but very few can construct a decent scene to showcase their "creation".

I'm making an unashamed plug for the Critique Forum and Gallery here.  Anyone wanting honest feedback on their work and an interest in developing as an artist would do well to post in there. 

There's a scene in "The Making of Phantom Menace", where George Lucas is standing in front a huge storyboard holding a pink marker and a yellow marker and marking-off the areas of "live action" and "CG". While this is happening you can see the CG artists standing there, CRAPPING THEIR PANTS. If you're a pro, in this situation, you DO NOT look down your nose at anything - you use whatever and do whatever it takes to get the job done. later folks jdc

"There's a scene in "The Making of Phantom Menace", where George Lucas is standing in front a huge storyboard holding a pink marker and a yellow marker and marking-off the areas of "live action" and "CG". While this is happening you can see the CG artists standing there, CRAPPING THEIR PANTS.

If you're a pro, in this situation, you DO NOT look down your nose at anything - you use whatever and do whatever it takes to get the job done."

Hollywood uses al sorts of tools, The first Star Wars models were constructed from parts of other model kits. Vue was used in Pirates of The Caribbean II. I think Vue 6 is a lot like Poser in many ways (premade content, textures, objects.....) its not what you use its the time you put into it.

I think it's more a case of a lot of Poser renders looking the same than looking bad.

"I think it's more a case of a lot of Poser renders looking the same than looking bad."

Agreed  DAZ releases a new outfit or hair prop
Many buy it and start posting renders with it
along with the same pre fab light sets and poses.

Quote - 80% of Poser art is hideous beyond belief. A bad reputation follows. This is a side effect of giving the "power of art" to the masses.

Others have said it better, but that applies to pretty much everything.. Literature, Art, Movies, etc.... but the one thing I remembered was something I was told years ago before I was a teenager after I voiced my dislike for something and this has stuck with me....

Never voice your opinion too loudly, unless you never plan on changing it!

I think I was teasing a girl and saying how stupid they were... I understood what they meant years later!