Thanks for the advice at least it heads me in the right direction I've got on to support to see what they come up with. The fresnel  node seems to be the answer I'm looking for. I'm actually try to create a toon shader that's why I wanted the 3 color output shadow, hatching and specula. This one thing Vue falls short on they have all these great nodes and no info on how to use them even Olivier vent is scratching his head.