Well the textures do make him shine but a lot can be done with the morphs included. i have found that one of the biggest thing to de-mike him is make the mouth narrow ... he has a really wide mouth as it stands and that screams Mike. And thanks everyone. Colm .. one of my bland head morphs might work well as a starting point. I did it for Loki and he has the thin sneaky thing going on some. http://forums.big-i.com/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID21/8.html Bottom right. Those morphs are at http://ghostofmacbeth.digitalartsites.com the characters don't work though so don't try .. I am working on getting a solution. the morphs are fine though. Later