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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Feb 24 11:54 pm)
Subject: V4 gets a new rig
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I'm perplexed why DAZ doesn't hire folks like you to do this during the finalizing stages. I suppose all her clothes are not going to fit then, correct?? I hope I'm wrong!
---Wolff On The Prowl---
Quote - excellent bending, as in yer other models, phan.
does this one also have the extra joints below to the hip?
any thought to adding the extra shoulder joint yet?
Miss Nancy: Yes this model does have a double hip Its basically the same rig as my two project models with a few adjustments. And I have indeed added another bone to the shoulder joint in my two models in the critique forum but not this one because I would have to cut up the shoulder into new groups. I left you a personal message in the critique forum with a pic of the results of the new shoulder bone. Here's a quik link, its a long thread I know. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2728435&page=3
About 3/4 of the page down page 3
Quote - I'm perplexed why DAZ doesn't hire folks like you to do this during the finalizing stages. I suppose all her clothes are not going to fit then, correct?? I hope I'm wrong!
Most of the clothes may not work because the bones are different. But they could be converted.
Probably too much work though. I wish Daz had let me make the rig for her as well. Would not have had to waste so many magnets and morphs.
cheers
phantom3D
Quote - Dang.
I wanna ask Phantom to teach me lol.I don't even know where to start modelling and you're re-rigging stuff. :)
I just jump in with both feet and start punching, thats how I learned. Also I tear other peoples models apart and see how they work, then decide what I like and what I don't like about them.
lots and lots of trial and error...............................
cheers,
phantom3D
That looks very good indeed.
Did you also recut the mesh? If not, all the morphs will continue to work.
And transferring the rigging to clothes is not that difficult - I could probably even whip up a Python script that would do the complete transfer automatically.
I agree with the other posters - DAZ should hire you to do the rigging for their figures. Or, if Smith Micro is smart, THEY hire you and beat the crap out of the Vickis with superior rigging in their new figures....
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
Quote - That looks very good indeed.
Did you also recut the mesh? If not, all the morphs will continue to work.
And transferring the rigging to clothes is not that difficult - I could probably even whip up a Python script that would do the complete transfer automatically.I agree with the other posters - DAZ should hire you to do the rigging for their figures. Or, if Smith Micro is smart, THEY hire you and beat the crap out of the Vickis with superior rigging in their new figures....
Yea I did recut the mesh on the hip and thighs so the morphs would need reworked but that's pretty easy to do.
Wow! I would love to play with that! No magnets!!! Wow!
You every try an old low res figure like Victoria 3 Reduced Resolution or Victoria 2?
I actually think the Vicky Preteen morphed up as an adult figure is a great mesh for bending and the full body morphs once you transfer the V2 face shape and the V2 breast morphs over to it.
I tend to use the V2 and V3RR even for male figures.
I have not tried them but I doo have some low res versions of the two models of my own. I will try rerigging some of the lower res figures and see how they come out.
If you were to make this new rigged version of Victoria made public would she still be able to take her morphs? If not is there going to be a work around to make the morphs and clothing fit? How about other characters derived from her like Aiko 4 and Vittorio 4??
---Wolff On The Prowl---
Quote - If you were to make this new rigged version of Victoria made public would she still be able to take her morphs? If not is there going to be a work around to make the morphs and clothing fit? How about other characters derived from her like Aiko 4 and Vittorio 4??
I don't know. It was just an excersize to see if my ideas for rigging would work for V4 with her lower polygon count. But I know that any morphs she has for the hips and thighs would have to be re tooled because I changed the poly groups to accomodate the double hip.
Do you think people would be interested in a V4 rigged differently? I was just doing it for myself because there were too many magnets and I felt I could get better results from a better rig. All the textures would still fit since I did not change the geometry. And most of the morphs would still fit because I only changed a couple body part groupings.
I am VERY interested!
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
As a free thing I would love a no-magnet version of V4 even without morphs but I imagine a commercial version would need to have the more popular morphs converted. You could maybe get around this for a product if you added body handles to use in place of the morphs for shaping the buttocks/thighs and maybe breasts.
Myself I use mainly heavy, pear shape, young, thin and the breast morphs and lately the male, but I imagine other people use voluptuous and stuff like that. I also use a genital morph set for the hips because I don't really like prop genitals for female figures. I think the Poser 2 Nude Woman worked well with texture genitals because of the hip arrangement but even with morphs the V4 groin area looks odd to me.
I would use it for nude stuff but I imagine if it was a popular figure you could get Wardrobe Wizard support for the clothes. I think most users still prefer conforming over dynamic clothes although I have some pretty decent dynamics I could use for pinup type stuff.
Really those V4 magnets take a toll on my system.
Quote - 3/23/08
I am very interested, and impressed. :)
Of course, if while you were at such a remake, you fixed the underarm problem, no one would complain.
LMK
Oh yea, the underarm issue! 
That would be nice to see that fixed as well. Cuts coming up that far.... Not sure why DAZ insists that they have done the best that they can do. I think that's BS, those cuts do not have to be that high and if they were lower, in a more normal position how would that impede the movement of the arm??
---Wolff On The Prowl---
3/23/08
I don't think adjusting the presently available morphs would be very difficult for an experienced developer. It would probably be more time consuming than anything else. But imagine being able to use all of the XYZ scales along with morphs to sculpt the figure the way you conceive it. Of course, derived work would need to be coded to load or work only if one owned the earlier work (figures, morphs, etc).
Do magnet sets to adjust clothing introduce the same kind of memory overhead that the V4 default joint magnets cause? If magnets would not be the answer, how would one convert clothing, short of using WW2?
I know that a point of key interest would be whether a re-rigged, jointed, and morphed V4 would work in Carrara. Some people like to do their renders and animations in that application. Naturally, D|S users would be interested in compatibility.
Re-rigging and re-jointing all of Poserdom seems to be a huge and largely thankless task. A few favorite characters might benefit from a remake. I understand that there is a collaborative effort to rework a centaur. Maybe phantom3D would have a few moments to contribute toward this, if it doesn’t give away too many of the "secrets" he is working on.
LMK
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
just to say, i don't think it would work as a commercial product unless you could keep all her head morphs. i'm pretty sure PhilC has utilities in WW 1 that could copy the groups and rigging to the clothes automatically. and, if necessary, that means you could do the same. but no morphs at all would be a problem for most users.
Quote - Do magnet sets to adjust clothing introduce the same kind of memory overhead that the V4 default joint magnets cause? If magnets would not be the answer, how would one convert clothing, short of using WW2?
Regardless of the use, the same memory useage is involved. I don't think WW2 wouldn't work because the new rig isn't in WW2. Wouldn't WW have to be set up to use the new rig if new actors are being added. You could suppy a blank cr2, as I do for Apollo, that people could plug the clothes into.
Phantom3d,
Can I ask who you are? lol No offense intended. But the name is a bit mysterious, obviously you know quite a lot about Poser, and your avatar says you are a newbie.
Do we know you as someone else more familiar? I know you are working on some figures. You might want to use a real name oppose to an alias.
-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the
face of truth is concealment."
I was a little surprised this rig worked so well with the V4. The underarm thing is fixed in the new models I am working on, it came down to putting another bone in the shoulder and messing around with the poly groups till it all worked.
Now that I'm thinking about it I have a rig that works really well for M3, D3, and V3 too. I tried one for James and it worked but not nearly as well, the geometry for james is wrong for this type of rig.
Some of the morphs would have to be redone and I don't exactly know how you could get the poly groupings changed and not include any geometry. As I understand it the geometry cannot be redistributed or given away in any manner. But if there was a way to simply change the poly groups with an install then the rig and install would be legal.
Who is doing the Centaur?
But then if I did make a rig for V4 I would be giving away all my secrets before my models come out..............Just some thoughts.
Thanks for the interest. I guess alot of people are just as unhappy with the rig and all those magnets as I was.
Cheers,
phantom3D
Anton: I am a newbie, but I'm a pretty fast learner. I have been working with 3Ds Max, Zbrush and poser now for about 2 years but have not been online or a member of renderosity. As far as giving out my real name online, not something I want to do. That's part of what's great about the internet, I can be annonomous. Most people seem to use a nickname.
Cheers,
phantom3D (Mike) that's all I want to give out. lol
BTY I have taken alot of inspiration from you model. I think its a quality product.
lkendall: thanks for the info I'll look into it.
Hiya,
The Centaur project is one I'm involved with currently. Shante wanted the Zygote Centaur or any Centaur made available. DAZ was working on one but the person involved.... something happened and he had to back out and then project was shelved. A real shame since it would have been probably David and the Mil 2 horse, so it would have been a worthy project but ... oh well.
So here we are with the Zygote Centaur that DAZ nicely donated to the community thanks to another member Kattey, nice gal. I stepped in and wanted to redo the eyes. Then Randy, (OKC) offered up his remapped version of the Zygote Centaur so then there were 2 mapped Centaurs. Textures were offered and Kattey stepped up to the plate to add in some morphs. Then another gal, Slochez**,** started working on another, re-mapping of the Centaur and so far it looks very promising, nice flat mapping! 
What's needed still is someone that can do face morphs.
It's the original Muscleman mesh (I think that's the name) with the Poser Horse, which was probably derived from the Zygote horse....
In any case if you wish here is the forum address to where the action is:
forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php
---Wolff On The Prowl---
Quote - ***Anton: I am a newbie, but I'm a pretty fast learner. I have been working with 3Ds Max, Zbrush and poser now for about 2 years but have not been online or a member of renderosity. As far as giving out my real name online, not something I want to do. That's part of what's great about the internet, I can be annonomous. Most people seem to use a nickname.
Cheers,
phantom3D (Mike) that's all I want to give out. lol
BTY I have taken alot of inspiration from you model. I think its a quality product.***
Well just Mike is fine. I am glad to see more people interested in Poser and experimenting is always fun.
-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the
face of truth is concealment."
Thanks Anton, I would really like to do this modeling stuff full time like you do. I am going to wait to see how I do with my first stuff. But I am encouraged by the interest so far. I am very slow because I learn alot as I go.
cheers,
phantom3D
I tend to agree with Niles, your original modeling work was going along gangbusters and you were kicking a lot of ass there. Not really any incentive for you to put tons of effort into rigging somebody else's mesh when your own is as good as it is, except for play. People who want to use your figures wouldn't be able to share conforming clothing or textures between them anyway (although you might consider trying to match your original figure's UVmapping to one of the popular standards)
3/23/08
*"People who want to use your figures wouldn't be able to share conforming clothing or textures between them anyway (although you might consider trying to match your original figure's UVmapping to one of the popular standards)"
pjz99:
About which popular standards are you thinking? The V/M/SP/D/F/SF/A/H3, the V/A4, and or some other figure's UV mapping? It seems to me that if phantom3D releases his figures, and he doesn't map his models to these standards himself, some one else will. He seems to be good at mapping UV's, why shouldn't he himself issue figures that can take these maps and make the money for it himself? I would think he would get the most return on his time spent with the V/M3 maps because there are SO many of them. Then again, I am being awfully liberal with his time.
On the other hand, he seems to be bringing some fresh thinking to model rigging, jointing, and mesh creation. He may have something innovative to offer to mapping. He has expressed the possibility that he might release figures with several UV mapping options. Why not include at least one option that would provide a large number of already made maps? If only I had talent, instead of just ideas!
LMK
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
phan, thx fr the update on the figures. just to mention, it was anton who first applied the
idea of an intermediate shoulder joint to the poser figure (apollo), although you came
up with the extra hip joint independently.
in regard to wardrobe wizard, contact philc with a view to seeing how he feels about
how his app would work in adjusting v3 and v4 clothes to your new v4 joint set-up.
Well if he's half as impressed as we are then I would hope he would try to support Phantom's work!
---Wolff On The Prowl---
I am working out a way to include a set of high res maps, which need to be on separate maps since poser only uses up to a certain size, and a set of easy to use maps that are on two maps, one body and one head map. Also I have an idea to create stretch free textures, I don't know if anyone else is doing this but I have not run into any yet if they are out there. Real skin in high stretch areas of the body is scrunched up when not stretched and the details are smaller too something like a balloon does with printing or a logo on the rubber. I don't know if I can get that sortof fine wrinkle look to the skin like you see on the buttocks or the top of the shoulder when the skin is unstretched, but I am pretty sure I can get a texture not to stretch and blur ect when the model bends. An idea I've been working on in the background for awhile.
Quote - phan, thx fr the update on the figures. just to mention, it was anton who first applied the
idea of an intermediate shoulder joint to the poser figure (apollo), although you came
up with the extra hip joint independently.in regard to wardrobe wizard, contact philc with a view to seeing how he feels about
how his app would work in adjusting v3 and v4 clothes to your new v4 joint set-up.
There were many things that Anton did with his apollo that I liked. As for the extra joint in the shoulder I had all but given up on the Idea, (couldn't seem to get a poly grouping that would work with it) but you, Miss Nancy, hounded me about putting it in mercilessly, for which I heartily thank you, now that I have finally got it to work. It solves many problems with the shoulder joint. And I thank Anton for coming up with the idea if he was the first.
My impression is that phantom3D is doing his own thing and is more interested in making the best figure he can rather than approaching it as a strictly commercial venture. He seems to be working on a UV superior to Unimesh or any other. I still have not gathered what his financial/commercial goal is in terms of selling the figures or otherwise making money off them but it seems that his focus is on good design.
The idea of Daz benefiting from his V4 rigging is discouraging on one level but on an other I sure would like to have the figure optimized. As for a standard UV, Apollo and Miki did okay despite having their own UVs. If his UV comes out anything like it looks to it should be much nicer to texture than other UVs.
Once his figure is out I don't see what harm it would do his original figures if he released his re-rigged V4 since I can't see that it would be a competing product. Might generate interest in his original figure. I'm interested in his hi-res/lo-res option plans for his figure since a lot of people including me do have use for a lighter mesh that bends well.
On the down side, it does seem to me that no matter how good a new figure is, without the market clout of Daz you can not ever expect to rival "This Years Vicky" for preeminence; especially with newbie users. You just have to come to terms with your place in the market. Either do what Anton has done and give it away or come up with a low unit price to see if you can get a base that will garner support.
The least good option I would expect is choosing a dollar price you think reflects the value of your work rather than low balling it to try to get volume. If you look in clearance you will see a number of really excellent products that are getting pulled from the market all together because the developer just could not deal emotionally with a volume sales price and went above that magic number for discretionary spending whatever it is... $12? $15? $17? $19. I can't imagine that Uzlite has ever cleared the kind of dollars per month BATLAB has. I'm sure Richibari clears more dollars than Stonemasson for that matter so it comes down to a personal choice I guess. There was a time when a single Posette texture could sell at $16 bucks but people expect a hell of a lot for $12 now I think.
Is there any other buisnesss model?
Releasing a low res version and selling the hi-res upgrade? I don't think people love the Daz system of a freebie base model and expensive morph sets. To challenge Daz I would think the figure would have to ship with the full morph set and a basic texture at a pretty low price. Would vendors ever consider paying a 10% royalty to the figure developer for conforming clothes and skin textures if the figure was released by the developer for free?
I think the users and the developers were happier ultimately back in the old freebie/DYI days 1995-2001 maybe. It seems people get all caught up and put through the wringer by the market just for a few grand a year or a couple grand a month... something I can understand if you are in the developing world but maybe not so much if the money isn't critical. Even the people I know from Eastern Europe or Africa making sales for money that actually matters for them have a hell of a time actually getting their hands on the cash given the limits of the local economy... they end up with the money sitting inaccessible in Paypal or store credit!
In everything I say do it for yourself and treat the income as gravy. When I was actually earning my living with commercial work I figured I should do work I was proud of but not kick myself if I ever got screwed. I still get royalties from various telecoms etc. but to me it is all a gift... how would I ever be able to go after it if they decided to screw me out of my cut? I read the sales reports they send me and cash the checks they send with a sense of wonder that at least in America the honor system seems to be good for something and so far as I know I have never been burned. If I were? Well, it would have meant some hours of my life "wasted" doing work I enjoyed but didn't make money on...
So true, and when you consider that you usually don't get everything you need and have to keep buying to finally have a usuable product, that 20 dallar purchase has become 50 dallars.
DarkEdge:
Thanks, I am going to put them together even if they flop and no one wants them, I figure that at the very least I can have some figures that I like and the satisfaction of knowing I built them.
Cheers,
phantom3D
I am happy to know that people are interested, I would like to add that I also have a low res, (12000 poly's) and a medium res (35-40k poly') version of both of my new model projects that I am working on , so that there will be more options for peoples choice. I have been talking with various people in the critique forum and there seems to be a need for some lower poly models for fill in the background, and things like that. There was another idea mentioned that I thought might be a cool model, and that was to have a model with a low res body but with a high res face and hands, if the model is wearing clothes all the poly's in the body are a waste.
Or if I could figure out how its done then body switching. Just some thoughts.
Cheers
phantom3D
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This is V4's geometry and a rig I put together today. Have not finished rigging the hands. Absolutely NO magnets, NO morphs of any kind, JCM's or otherwise. Just a straight rig, with my secret additions for bending. No post work. Look at that hip bend and notice the leg does not get squashed. Butt looks more natural too..
A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY