"Faeriewylde is what you're speaking of. OTOH, their forum/gallery servers are located in California, and their store is on a separate domain and site completely."

I can only go by what the WHOIS lookup tells me, and that reports faeriewylde.com as registered in Nashville.

As for the separate store hosted on another domain, that is something all the other sites could have easily done, too.
But I guess it was too good an opportunity to get rid of the little ones while still looking good and blaming them all on the CC companies.

@Sean: I never said that the CC companies were NOT to blame. (See above)
My point is that there would have been a way of keeping a store without the need to declare a whole Poser genre to be "entartete Kunst".

Quote - FACE IT!  And if you honestly think there's still a problem with puttin a feature such as genatals, that is natural to ever last person on the planet, on child  figures, than I refer you to any art work made by anyone from before the nineteen hundred, especialy renesance work.

I'm with XENO on this, the ignorance of some people on the whole 'classical art' thing is quite amusing.

Try this, go and do some research on what a 'Cherub' actually is. Hint: It's not a naked baby with oversized genitalia and wings. Those flying rugrats you see in Renaissance art are actually 'Putti' a motif from ancient Greco-Roman art, often associated with eroticism, leisure, playfulness and the goddess Aphrodite. ie they are actually icons of sexuality and romantic love and not some 'expression of divine innocence' or some such bullcrap.

The main reason they wound up in that era's artwork is because some Renaissance artists 'rediscovered' them and then had a blast secretly thumbing their noses at their foolish patrons by adding them to straight laced religious works. Of course they couched it in a whole pile of Bible BS and since wikipedia was still a few centuries away, no one ever knew any different.

Anyone using them in contemporary work should think twice about what kind of message they are sending.

Attached Link: http://www.thorneworks.com/Galleries/GalleryIndex.html

*Try this, go and do some research on what a 'Cherub' actually is. Hint: It's not a naked baby with oversized genitalia and wings. Those flying rugrats you see in Renaissance art are actually 'Putti' a motif from ancient Greco-Roman art, often associated with eroticism, leisure, playfulness and the goddess Aphrodite. ie they are actually icons of sexuality and romantic love and not some 'expression of divine innocence' or some such bullcrap.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putti  I quote- The putto (pl. putti) is a figure of a pudgy human baby, almost always male, often naked and having wings, found especially in Italian Renaissance art. The figure derives from Ancient art but was "rediscovered" in the early Quattrocento. These images are frequently, and erroneously, confused with cherubs.[1] 
-end quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherub I quote-

This article is about the supernatural entity. For the band, see Cherubs (band). For the Robert Muchamore book series, see CHERUB . For the depictions of winged babies erroneously called cherubs, see Putto . For the sailing dinghy, see Cherub (dinghy).

A cherub (Heb. כרוב, pl. כרובים, eng. trans kruv, pl. kruvim, lat. cherub[us], pl cherubi[m]) (sometimes pronounced the way it is spelled) is a supernatural entity mentioned several times in the Old Testament (specifically the Torah, Ezekiel, and Isaiah), in the Book of Revelation (a New Testament text), and in numerous modern texts, such as Paradise Lost.

The correct plural can be written as cherubim or cherubs. Because most English speakers are unfamiliar with Hebrew plural formation, the word cherubims is sometimes used as a plural, such as in the King James Bible[1].

-end quote

There's an excellent biblicaly correct description of a Cherub to be found here:

http://www.wyrdology.com/other/angels/cherub.html

the whole cherub, putti debate going on here has something to do with the price of tea in china right?????/

seriously does it really matter what they are called?

Luke, Laura, Vicky 4, Mike 3, Koji, Stephanie, David, James, or any other DAZ or E Frontier character. None of them are children, women, or men.  None of them have a gender. None of them are real people, they are all digital collections of polygons. No of them can be said to be exploited no matter how you present them because none of them are people.

Quote - Those flying rugrats you see in Renaissance art are actually 'Putti' a motif from ancient Greco-Roman art, often associated with eroticism, leisure, playfulness and the goddess Aphrodite.

Quote - The main reason they wound up in that era's artwork is because some Renaissance artists 'rediscovered' them and then had a blast secretly thumbing their noses at their foolish patrons by adding them to straight laced religious works.

You know nothing about Greece, Rome, middle-age and rennassaince.
Not only celestial flying creatures, statues and paintings are full of normal human children and all are nude, do you know why?
Sex neither genitals were not considered as something shameful or forbiden, so nothing wrong with nudity. Then why children and nude?
A greek concept was that civilization brought decadence to mankind and clothes are a product and symbol of civilization.
A children was considered innocent and not contaminated yet, they represent purity and of course you cannot represent something pure with the product of decadence, so children must be represented nude!!!
Were only the Protestants and Puritans that turned human body into something shameful and sinful and of course the end of art and much more things, after all, art is forbiden by the Bible read textually. 

Quote - the whole cherub, putti debate going on here has something to do with the price of tea in china right?????/

seriously does it really matter what they are called?

Well, of course it does!!! Where do you think you are, anyway??? :-)

I never thought I'd see a Poser thread Godwined

Quote - ...not some 'expression of divine innocence' or some such bullcrap...
Anyone using them in contemporary work should think twice about what kind of message they are sending.

that's like saying you should be careful of using a word because of what it meant 400 years ago, ignoring what it means today.  language is alive, as is visual language.    which also brings in the intent of the person using it.  symbols can't be compartmentalized into a single fixed form, and when it comes to their meaning, the majority rules.  if everyone today sees cherubs as divine innocence, then that's the meaning.  if they see flaming crocodiles in hot pants that way, same thing. you can make esoteric arguments with historical backing, but they're only as relevant as the current consensus makes them. 

and i should say current local consensus.  red, for instance, has a different meaning in western art and fashion than Asian.  i know an older woman who grew up in Hong Kong, who said her former in-laws were horrified when she wore a red dress for her wedding.  it didn't do any good for her  to try to impose Hong Kong's meaning on a Western ceremony, so i must admit i think it's pretty silly to try to impose the meaning of a bunch of people long turned to dust on today's society.

*I never thought I'd see a Poser thread Godwined

I quote-*Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2][3]

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.

The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[9]

I feel I made a valid comparison that was appropriate.  Again,  protestants and puritans do not have a lock on censorship.  Non christian (pagan)dictators use it quite often as well.

Censorship is a typical aspect of totaliarism. The Nazi regime was totaliar, but so is the Chinese regime, the Iranian regime, and quite a few others. All those regimes employ censorship. And in all of these cases censorship is used as one of the tools to control the populace, a tool to force the views of the powers-that-be onto the general public.

Quote - "Faeriewylde is what you're speaking of. OTOH, their forum/gallery servers are located in California, and their store is on a separate domain and site completely."

I can only go by what the WHOIS lookup tells me, and that reports faeriewylde.com as registered in Nashville.

Only because that's where Thorne lives. ;)

Quote - As for the separate store hosted on another domain, that is something all the other sites could have easily done, too.

It could, but you forget a vital component of a site: Brand Recognition. Thorne can pull it off because the point of Faeriewylde isn't to drive sales, and vice-versa.

--

Quote - peng, thanks for the link to thorne's site. is the gallery the one at the attached link, or is there another?

The Gallery is at Faeriewylde, in the Faerie Friends topic. :)

--

Quote - Protestants and puritans don't have a lock on censorship.  The man in the photo was a pagan.

Oh, that's nothing - Stalin, Lenin, and the current Chinese leadership are all atheists... religion has frig-all to do with the desire to censor and control. Power OTOH, and the desire to maintain it, does.

/P

Quote - the whole cherub, putti debate going on here has something to do with the price of tea in china right?????/

seriously does it really matter what they are called?

I'm not debating anything. I merely thought the Cherub/Putti issue was an interesting side topic to the current discussion so I added my 2 cents.

"just to remind: in the states, the supreme court ruled that it's legal to post 3d renders of
nude children.  I don't know if all the major poser sites are in the states, nor the specific
reasons why none of 'em allow nudie pix of kids."

Are you kidding, with all the Mcarthyism going on in this land of ours right now!  I think the banks would black list them.  I was asked the other day if I was going to make any child models along with my others.  My first thought was sure why not..............then I started thinking about all the people being hauled off to jail for even having baby pics of their own kids.  It's a good thing my mom and dad are dead they'd be in jail for sure for showing those cute pics of me running around in the cow pasture without a stitch.  They just loved to embaras me with those pics " Oh look at mike when he was a baby"   In our sick society they'd be branded makers of child porn and sent to jail.

No, I think I better pass on making any child models. Not that I give a rats ass what anyone thinks of me or what I do, but I would just as soon not be hauled off to Guantanimo bay and tortured.

Who was Caravaggio any way?

Uh, actually, there is some newer US Federal law on the books that does not make a distinction between 3d renders and photographs, important FYI.  Ignore this body of law at your peril:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Whorley

You can dislike the law, you can think it's unconstitutional or defective or repressive or whatever, but it's on the books, is enforced, and at least one fella (the good Mr. Whorley) has been in prison since 2006 for breaking it.

Quote - Protestants and puritans don't have a lock on censorship. > Quote -

Are you sure?, just look in which country censorship to art is happening today.
Political censorship happens everywhere and is independent on religion, but censorship to art only happens in only some places.
Want more?, just look at the artistic expression through history in countries where Protestants and Puritans had the power.

Quote - The man in the photo was a pagan.

Nice picture, a pagan?, so why do you blame Catholics and Lutherans for the Nazism?

**jhmcd2:

And in America regardless if the photo's are sexually oriented or not, do not expect any court or jury to actually judge you by the evidence.  The second you said child and genital in the same sentence, you were judged and found guilty in the minds of most americans. We are a knee jerk society these days run by our media. And since when has our local court system or our local police body ever gave a crap what the constitution has to say about anything?  Our congress certainly doesn't so why should they?  And you thought you had rights.

If you want to stay out of jail I would think twice about even using child and genital in the same sentence or paragraph for that matter, in fact forgett they even exist, you'll be safer.
The men in black are coming...........................................................................

Who was caravaggio anyway?**

Hitler was a pagan? Somebody rewrite history when I wasn't looking?

Coldrake

Quote - Hitler was a pagan? Somebody rewrite history when I wasn't looking?

Coldrake

What is a pagan anyway? Does that mean a non christian? I guess I will look it up..................................................................................WOW!  I'm a PAGAN, cool!

who was caravaggio anyway?

And as for Hitler, the only problem that Hitler had with art was with Picasso and it was not due his nude majas!

Quote - What is a pagan anyway? Does that mean a non christian?

Technically speaking, a Jew is a pagan.

pa·gan [páygən]
n (plural pa·gans)
1.  follower of a less popular religion: somebody who does not follow one of the world’s main religions, especially somebody who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, and whose religion is regarded as questionable (sometimes considered offensive) 
2.  polytheist or pantheist: a follower of an ancient polytheistic or pantheistic religion 
3.  heathen: somebody who has no religion (disapproving)

I'm #3 :biggrin:

>> who was caravaggio anyway?

Caravaggio was an Italian painter, from the (I think) 16th century. He's one of those artists that, when you see his work, you say, "Oh yeah, that guy!" It was pretty radical for its time in terms of lighting and composition , and Caravaggio's personal reputation didnt help much either. Derek Jarmann did a decent little bio-pic on him in the 1980s.

Does anyone remember Robert Maplethorpe?

:: waving hand :: I do! I actually knew Robert for a short while in SF, and he was just as wild and bizarre as his photos. Great, great guy.

Caravaggio did a number of brilliant works in his short time he was actually famous in his time and most all of his paintings were comissioned.  A couple of his works were of nude children. we in our society see them and imediately brand him a pedophile.  Is there any evidence for such a devastating charge? No none at all, these works were comissioned after all I would think they reflect the taste of the people who comissioned them.

Robert Maplethorpe produced a prodigeous amount of works.  A few of them were iconoclastic and a few were homoerotic.  Most were not.  From what I have seen of his art he was a brilliant talented photographer.  Our whole nation went on a witch hunt, everyone all the way to our government in D.C.  Exhibits closed, museums told what they could and could not display.  Students funding cut and kicked out of school unless they complied with the state sanctioned "nice" art.

This person who asked for the genitals, I don't know him or what he intends.  But its not my place to judge him with no evidence of wrong doing.  I am not a forum cop to pry into peoples minds, to root out some perceived possible motive.

Well,.......................................
 
cheers.

*Uh, actually, there is some newer US Federal law on the books that does not make a distinction between 3d renders and photographs, important FYI.  Ignore this body of law at your peril:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Whorley

You can dislike the law, you can think it's unconstitutional or defective or repressive or whatever, but it's on the books, is enforced, and at least one fella (the good Mr. Whorley) has been in prison since 2006 for breaking it.

*That's why I dropped the Poser version of Plain Jane.  Plain Jane has genitals and I was afraid someone would use Poser's figure height to turn her into a child.

Now,  I know everyone thought the nazi comparison was foolish and ridiculed it, but here's some food for thought.   Someone gets offended by the fact that your can turn Jessi's genitals on then use Poser's figure height to turn her into a child.  Said individual takes the program to their local conservative coalition group.  The conservative group runs a media campaign against the program, before they take it to the county prosecutor.   Everyone see where this is going?  End of the line,  supreme court ruling,  but guess what it's 2008 the court has a conservative majority.  What do you think their ruling will be?   

Attached Link: Are you sure you have nothing to worry ?

And the Guggenheim Museum still proudly shows Mapplethorpe's "Rosie" and "Jesse" on their website.

And The Guardian UK still shows Robert Crumbs infamous "The Family that lays together, stays together".

And Wikipedia still displays dozens of works of Bouguereau, including "Cupidon" and "L'Amour et Psyché, enfants".

So I think the rabid "child protectors" still have a looong way to go to make this planet "safe for everybody".

Attached Link: The real "predators"

Because it won't stop. You give them an inch, they take a mile. They cram their shitty "family values" and "community standards" right through your throats untill you choke to death on it.

They want to mind fuck you, they want to control you, they want to destroy you.
Because they are insane.
They are not reasonable.
There is no common ground.
They hate freedom because it scares them to death.

It's THEM we must protect our children from, not what people might do with an anatomical correct Poser child.

>> A few of them were iconoclastic and a few were homoerotic.  Most were not.

May I put a caveat on that?

Most he allowed for display in major museums were not. But he had hundreds that were shown in smaller, more private exhibtions in SF and NY that certainly cemented his reputation amoung the SM/BD crowd, as well as his almost overtly romantic studies of nude gay male couples. Robert was very much a part of the NY leather scene and reveled in it, with a particular fondness (so to speak) for black men, many of whom he photographed, which inevitably led to charges that he was not only a homosexual but a racist one at that (!), a charge that was far from true and frankly never made one whit of sense save to arch-conservative black leaders in the late 70s and early 80s. Quite simply, he simply had his preferences, and that was pretty well that.

There have been a few publications of Robert's photography, but none have really done him justice. Folks even now think of him as this radical, marginal photographer who used sensationalism as a means of getting publicity. While he was quite good at that, he was also an extremely talented photographer who dared to approach his subject matter with the same care and artistic density as Ansel Adams gave his landscapes. He liked to shock, but he was also capable of stunning still lifes.

*Patorak, if there is one lesson from history, it is that we have to fight censorship with teeth and claws.

Censorship has always been used by militant activists to unleash a greater evil.  I'm sure everyone here knows what the greater evil is.  How do we know an activists group is militant?  Mention "Peace, Love and Understanding"  and they will tell you " That's pacifist talk,  the time for words are over,  It's time to take action"   The scary part is when an individual or a group of individuals unite all the militant activists against a common enemy.

Quote - Hitler was a pagan? Somebody rewrite history when I wasn't looking?
Coldrake

Hitler actually had no real religion to speak of... his obsession was with the "Aryan" race, which traced itself to the Himalayan portions of India and Nepal - the Nazis even sent out an ongoing expedition to study the folks who lived in the area.

As for censorship? It's a tool, not and end. And it works in more than one direction.

/P

From Wikipedia:

>> Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but after he left home, he never attended Mass or received the * sacraments*,[78]Hitler often praised Christian heritage, German Christian culture, and professed a belief in Jesus Christ.[79]In his speeches and publications Hitler even spoke of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice".[80][81] His private statements, as reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but critical of traditional Christianity.[82]However, in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or neo-paganism,[82]and ridiculed such beliefs in Mein Kampf.[83]Rather, Hitler advocated a "Positive Christianity",[84]a belief system purged from what he objected to in traditional Christianity, and which reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews.

Hitler believed in Arthur de Gobineau's ideas of struggle for survival between the different races, among which the "Aryan race"—guided by "Providence"—was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization. In Hitler's conception Jews were enemies of all civilization.

Hitler, despite his native Catholicism, favored aspects of Protestantism if they were more susceptible to his own objectives. At the same time, he adopted some elements of the Catholic Church's hierarchical organization, liturgy and phraseology in his politics.[85][86]

Hi Sean

Counterpoint.   http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0110.htm

The real danger is extremism, one way or the other.
Ultra-Radical and Ultra-Conservatist idealisms are equally false, equally propagandized, and equally destructive.
Unrestricted freedom (anarchy) is no better than unrestricted censorship (totalitarianism).

Quote - Patorak, if there is one lesson from history, it is that we have to fight censorship with teeth and claws.

Because it won't stop. You give them an inch, they take a mile. They cram their shitty "family values" and "community standards" right through your throats untill you choke to death on it.

They want to mind fuck you, they want to control you, they want to destroy you.
Because they are insane.
They are not reasonable.
There is no common ground.
They hate freedom because it scares them to death.

It's THEM we must protect our children from, not what people might do with an anatomical correct Poser child.

What I find most alarming is the deliberate well thought out and planned manipulation of the minds of future generations.  What are they making of our legacy? Our imortality? What will the world become in my sons lifetime? Reminds me of Asimov's Foundation trilogy.................scary.

*What I find most alarming is the deliberate well thought out and planned manipulation of the minds of future generations.  What are they making of our legacy? Our imortality? What will the world become in my sons lifetime? Reminds me of Asimov's Foundation trilogy.................scary.

*I agree.  It's like a chess game.

Here's an insight into the mind of a tyrant.    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

What worries me,  tyrants always come out of the closet in economically depressed times.

*The real danger is extremism, one way or the other.
Ultra-Radical and Ultra-Conservatist idealisms are equally false, equally propagandized, and equally destructive.
Unrestricted freedom (anarchy) is no better than unrestricted censorship (totalitarianism).

I agree.  The all share one thing in common too.  Militant activism.

Quote - Hi Sean

Counterpoint.   http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0110.htm

Unfortunately, I cant buy a lot of what is said there, because it just seems natural that a religiously based website like that would want to make sure it was properly distanced from any association with Germany during that period That's not to dismiss it out of hand, but when I look at how well annotated the Wikipedia article is, just for those few paragraphs, and the only solid sources this link can bring up is another religious blog, I tend to weigh a little more towards the site with the documentation.

To be honest, I dont think Hitler himself had much of an idea what his own religious ideas were supposed to be, because there's so much conflicting information out there. But it does seem that he stuck more or less to what we could now describe as radical evangelical Christian-based beliefs, which would certainly account for why he chose the various political and social groups that were headed to the camps.

But that's just a guess. With him dead (or close to it in Argentina :-) ), we probably will never know for certain one way or the other.

Hi Sean

Try  http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
and  http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/meinkampf.html

""I agree.  It's like a chess game.

Here's an insight into the mind of a tyrant.    http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

What worries me,  tyrants always come out of the closet in economically depressed times.""

Times like that certainly set the mood for people to be worried and more susceptible to promises of security.  In times of plenty people are more likely to be sceptical, more likely to question.  Do our economic woes perhaps have a purpose?

I was hoping they'd keep hitler out of this, but I suppose it was inevitable.

anyway, just a word of caution to poser users: don't even think about comparing yourselves
to the great masters of the italian renaissance (in regard to cherubs, amor, cupid et al.).
it's just another of the several self-delusions peculiar to the poser subculture that have made
poser the laughing stock of the larger 3D community (users of more expensive apps).

>> don't even think about comparing yourselves to the great masters of the italian renaissance

Y'know, I get up in the morning, fire up the computer, and dash off a couple of masterpieces before going to work. Those Italians took, what, months? years? to complete just a single canvas. Slackers, the lot of them. "Leo, cant you finish that Mona Lisa thing and move on to another project?" "STOP HOUNDING ME ABOUT IT, OKAY? I'LL GET IT DONE WHEN I GET IT DONE!" Know what I'm saying?

Quote - I was hoping they'd keep hitler out of this, but I suppose it was inevitable.

anyway, just a word of caution to poser users: don't even think about comparing yourselves
to the great masters of the italian renaissance (in regard to cherubs, amor, cupid et al.).
it's just another of the several self-delusions peculiar to the poser subculture that have made
poser the laughing stock of the larger 3D community (users of more expensive apps).

Are you sure your Avatar isn't responsible for that laughing stock thingie? :tt2: J/K

And to think Michaelangelo started out with sticks and sepia, no proper paints at all, as everyone knows, you certainly cannot create anything artistic without the proper expensively purchased tools. Art is for those elite few who can afford it.

I believe Michelangelo started his carreer with a hammer & chisels.