Not any more rules. Not sure if you read the whole thread. The point is the rules aren't the same for everyone.

Quote - Not any more rules. Not sure if you read the whole thread. The point is the rules aren't the same for everyone.

I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?
Should they go and find previous threads that they moved or warned about and make apologies or something to that effect to make things more even?
Who exactly is not getting treated equally?

Are you talking about the fact that merchants can't blow their own horn, but someone else can? Well, if you inspect any social rule close enough, placement of it's dividing line will appear somewhat arbitrary. That's just the nature of rules in general. It's not an indication of favoritisam or unequal treatment.

Quote - JenX- In all fairness, the original rule was around because you couldn't ask a question or post a tip without it being drowned out of the forum with commercial posts.  That's why we made the MP forum in the first place.  Well, that was before I came on staff, but still.

That isn't accurate. So overy exxagerated. It was not so bad. Noone was drowned. I was here during that period and before as an active member; not someone who posted elsewhere and occassionally came here. It was a problem, then too, because the rules were never consistant.

Two periods in time are being confused.

The Product Showcase birth, many years ago, resulted from an earlier wave of complaints and a desire to have a place to show off products since the forums were a very popular site feature. At the time, commrcial themed threads were very popular with all the discussion you are saying is so good to have. But back then, that popularity lead to resentment, which lead to a lot of complaints.

So to fix the issue they created the Product SHowcase Forum.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=606232

The issue of people avoiding Product Showcase continued into 2003. The problem was similar. Some threads advert, promo, wip threads, usually about Daz figures, weren't being moved to Product showcase. More resentment ensued.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=1374482&page=1

In 2004 there was a surge of forum rules. Brokering was at it's height. There were many sour grapes in the forums who frequently/actively griped about brokers talking about their items. Several rules and changes happened during a short period of time and were very severe. Nothing unrelated to the use of Poser was allowed.

Complaint and debate, much liek PP Chix Coop, took most of the OT thread stress. So to get around the issuein the Poser forum, people would post a pic of a poser figure and then say "Btw.....".
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=1680787

The suggestion of a toggle feature to simply hide commercial posts has been suggested for over 7 years. They say they listen?

The best suggestions from the past have been

1. A visibility toggle for topic flags like nudity, commercial, etc. (ignored)
2. A content discussion forum.

You complain (among other things but I'm only addressing this one):

Quote - Any if freebie creator have to post announcements in the Freebie Forum, why are non-creators exempt?

Ironically, your freebie banner is all over this thread (and forums) including your own signature.  How can you claim that, in this part of your complaint, you feel that as a content provider you feel you are exempt from this "separate member rule" when you are free to use the banner along with anyone else who chooses to advertise for you?  Are you complaining about those who advertise your freebie in their signatures?   Because the way I see  it, your Apollo freebie is not being relegated to the freebie forum only.   Or are you referring  to thread titles and not post content?

Sweetie, start from page one. Read each blue block one by one and wait for the light bulb. be patient. It will come. But wait for it.

Seriously, this  issue doesn;t affect me at all. But it is an important issue to me, because I see where it isn't fair.

But in regards to my banner and Apollo, I did have to announce him in the Freebie forum and was one of the first to use it. I follow the rules, even if I don;t like them.

Quote - Connie wrote:
I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?

Connie, the thread (which wasn't addressed to Jen repectfully) went in another direction from some, but I am not sure how I could have put my questions more plain. I was asking:
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

***Really all I am looking for.

Quote - > Quote - Connie wrote:

I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?

Connie, the thread (which wasn't addressed to Jen repectfully) went in another direction from some, but I am not sure how I could have put my questions more plain. I was asking:
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

***Really all I am looking for.

You and I both know that as an admin, they can't or aren't going to come and say that the current rules are result of somewhat hap hazard appeasing of whomever seems to scream the most. Much the way most rules come to being Just look at politics and governments, they're supposed to be experts at rule making - like our beloved legislative branch... and hap hazard rule and policy making is everywhere. We seem to call it the democratic process.

I mean, even if they privately may think this to themselves, being in a position of an admin, it's very likely they aren't allowed to say something to that effect (I've admined sites with thousands of members before - you get little pep talks about what kinds of things you should and shouldn't say. in order to uphold an image.) Wen you become an admin, you agree to this, and you no longer get to speak for yourself, everything you say can be construed as the site official stance. It's not some sort of a secret or a bad thing, it's how these things work.

If I look at this in the light of you not being satisfied with this answer, which I think is closest to reality, and I know you're no dummy, your question ends up looking rhetorical... but with no clear indication of what you're getting at. I've been looking at your questions and thinking to myself, what exactly is your beef? I find it hard to believe that your beef is merely with the rule making process being hap hazard. Just about every rule making process I've ever seen is rather hap hazard. If I see one that isn't, I'll get worried.

The rules are a bit goofy. If they get adjusted, someone else whom is more affected will think they're a bit goofy. Rendo Staff doesn't appear to think they're goofy enough to warrant considering changes... so we're kind of stuck.

Personally I'd like it if they got changed so content creators are allowed to talk about their stuff in here more. To me seeing how things are done is very educational. For example, I got to CG society and 3D total and Zbrush Central to see various 'making of.... threads all the time'.
I'd absolutely LOVE it if there were more 'making of' threads around here, and if they weren't relegated to dead forums.

I don't think that pressing admins is going to bring this change about - if it's possible to facilitate the change. Perhaps polling members or a petition or something to that effect would be more effective.  But then again, Vendors and content makers are held to a higher standard of behavior and have much more to lose by participating in a conflict, so guess whom will end up screaming the most to get their way? It won't be the vendors. So, it's very likely we'll end up right where we started.

You wanna show the people running rendo the error of their ways, and do it publicly on their own forum???? ahem yeah, good luck with that. Publically pointing to figures of authority the errors of their ways is never a goo idea - unless one is looking for a fight that is. Not that I mind occasional fights, but I don't think a fight is what you are after here.

Quote -
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

---

It's not so much that there are separate rules for content creators and non-content creators.  It's simply that one cannot post advertisements about their product, for free or for profit, in the forum.  For example, let's say you purchased an item that you'd bought here, and were having problems with it...and the creator is on vacation (also, for this scenario's sake, let's pretend that you DON'T know how to fix the problem, but someone on the forum might).  It would be faster for you to ask the question on the forum, to see if anyone has a fix. 

That, itself, is just one example.  But, seriously, there aren't separate rules for content creators and non-content creators.  Just rules about what sort of posts we allow in our forums.

In all actuality, I'd honestly prefer it if all WIP threads went back to the Developer's forum.  However, sometimes, tutorial and/or request threads can take on a life of their own, and become WIP threads.

Trust me -- if any rule changes were to be made -- or were the enforcement policies of the current rules adjusted in any direction ("looser" or "more restricted"), then somebody wouldn't be happy about it.  Please one group = displease another group.  That's how these things work.

Members don't agree among themselves over policy matters -- or over the proper methods for the enforcement of policy matters.  Picking away at the issue won't change that fact.  One member sees things one way; another member sees the same issue from an entirely different perspective.  So by default: both members can't have everything that they want -- their way.  Not and keep the other member happy at the same time.

Given that set of circumstances: admins are left with the often thankless job of balancing matters in a manner that (hopefully) works out to the better for as many people as possible.

But......some won't be happy no matter what.  And that's another aspect of the way that things work.

heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

In my opinion, a freebie isn't a "product." It is an organic manifestation of the Poser user base. The difference between a creator posting about a freebie and a merchant advertising a product is the difference between a gift and junkmail. That this distinction is ignored reveals how much influence the merchants wield around here.

Quote - heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

If it's only half-empty after this thread, you're doing good!

Attached Link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/product

Use whichever definition you want.  I'm using the first.
Product - A thing produced by labor.

Quote - > Quote - heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

If it's only half-empty after this thread, you're doing good!

hee hee...it's actually as of about 2 weeks ago.  My roommate and I had a margarita night ;)

A definition that doesn't distinguish is too generalized to be useful, and that goes for policy as well. If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

Quote - In my opinion, a freebie isn't a "product." It is an organic manifestation of the Poser user base. The difference between a creator posting about a freebie and a merchant advertising a product is the difference between a gift and junkmail. That this distinction is ignored reveals how much influence the merchants wield around here.

Many freebies aren't gifts to the community, they are also promotional and advertizing items for various merchants.
If you ever decide to become a merchant, one of the basic pieces of advice you'll get is to make freebies to get yourself and your work known before you jump into merchanthood.

So, what you see in the freebies section is a mixed bag of motivations for making freebies.
You'd quickly find ourself with a dilemma of how to categorize what the freebies were intended for. You'll find a few that are meant and only work as an add-on to a marketplace item.

But, your post illustrates what I was getting at a few posts ago. If you move the line - there's always going to be someone impacted and unhappy with it's position. It's never going to be in a perfect spot.

Much like that itch that seems to move to a different spot right when you thought you reached it.

Quote - If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

Eh?

And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

And other non sequiturs like that.

Quote - In all actuality, I'd honestly prefer it if all WIP threads went back to the Developer's forum. 

:woot:  gasp   :crying:  sniffle  

Actually, I was never all that sure what the developers forum was for... other then sitting there playng possum* with a few other forums.

*for those whom may not know it, phrase playing possum means 'playing dead'

Quote - And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

Non sequitur or not, I'm going to say a little prayer for those warm winds from the west... just in case they help with gas prices :lol:

Quote - A definition that doesn't distinguish is too generalized to be useful, and that goes for policy as well. If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

We can't tell anyone what to make and what not to make.  Us forum staff do none of that.  If you have a gripe about the MP, Debbie or Karen would be glad to help you with that.  

That said...Even if we say "hey, that's too much like what we've got/it won't sell/that's not what we're looking for", etc., people can sell it elsewhere.  Us saying it's not right for here doesn't mean the seller hasn't already packaged it up to sell somewhere else.  sniff  Smell that?  That's commerce in the air. 

Everyone wants to post in the Poser forum: because that's "where the action is": and therefore that's where you're more likely to have an audience.

People are drawn in here for many reasons.........but I suspect that a lot of it is for the entertainment value.  Although a fair number of participants really do want to know about shaders.  But many others simply want to read what others have to say to (or about) each other while they are arguing about shaders.

I believe that the Photography forum is busy, too.  Another good place to get noticed.

If you want to be strictly (shudder) serious......then there's the Poser Technical forum, as I suggested earlier.

Quote - > Quote - And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

Non sequitur or not, I'm going to say a little prayer for those warm winds from the west... just in case :lol:

Heh -- you and me both. 

Ah yes, the poser circus. So true.

It was as bad as jenX and I have said back when the first set of rules was implemented. I remember it well because I was just learning. If it wasn't for members like Geep, philC, Little Dragon and even you Anton, BTW I still have your V2 Promo Girl in my runtime. LOL It really was hard to not get spammed when asking questions.

As Penguisto has mentioned, it is all the rule changing on top of the original that has lead to all this. Is it fair to everyone? Not in thier minds. Nor do I like many of them. I'm not much of a rule person. The first was needed, The added ones not so much.

This is a new generation of users now. Maybe a poll would be a good thing to see where we are at. Many of the older members have left for one reason or another, some of us old farts are still around because we are comfortable here, no matter how hard newer members try to screw that up.

All these splinterd forums are a bit of a pain but as Zenophonz has pointed out there are forums set up for these things if and that is a big if memebers would use them. Nah, Better to rant in the Poser forum.

And yes I was one of the one that wanted Commercial tags back then too. But with the new rules It wouldn't make any difference, if I understand the new rule changing unless you are a R'sity merchant.

Wasn't it the voice of merchant's that caused the freebies having to go? If we're not allowd why are they, kind of thing?

Quote - You may not agree with where we draw that line, but it is drawn because we do NOT believe that either a blanket ban or an advertising free-for-all is in the best interest of this forum's users.

In short, things will be staying the same, only we will be working harder on OUR end to ensure advertising does not happen in our forum.

Goes a little bit towards explaining why, but damn - it seems like unnecessary work.

I mean, you got nudie flags for posts, why not put in a "commercial/advert" flag or somesuch? That way those who don't want to see it  don't have to, and it's a lot easier than seeking patterns and moving threads... I mean, I eyeball server logs as part of my morning routine, but thanks to scripts and regex, I only have to skim the parts I'm interested in, and not dredge my eyeballs through the whole pile of them, you know?

FWIW, Anton (the OP) never mentioned a blanket ban (or a blanket loosening, either). He just wanted to know why things are they way they are now ;)

/P

Yup, and I answered that on page 4 ;)

Quote - Sweetie, start from page one. Read each blue block one by one and wait for the light bulb. be patient. It will come. But wait for it.

Seriously, this  issue doesn;t affect me at all. But it is an important issue to me, because I see where it isn't fair.

But in regards to my banner and Apollo, I did have to announce him in the Freebie forum and was one of the first to use it. I follow the rules, even if I don;t like them.

Listen Doll, we've both been around the barbeque more than once and have seen what bitching in the forums gets us all.   Bitch loud enough and we're told no more of whatever it is we're bitching about.  First we lost commercial postings in the poser forum, for a time we lost off topic posts due to a member bitching loud enough, then free stuff was relegated to it's obscure corner and now we have no off site postings allowed in product showcase.  

In case you haven't been noticing history repeating itself do attempt to notice that you are greatly benefiting from something that could be ripped away....  others posting your wares for you. 
But by all means, continue.  When we can no longer link to our own freebies in our signatures we'll know who to thank. 

Quote - In case you haven't been noticing history repeating itself do attempt to notice that you are greatly benefiting from something that could be ripped away....  others posting your wares for you. 
But by all means, continue.  When we can no longer link to our own freebies in our signatures we'll know who to thank. 

Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon." I'd suggest there's a more causative link between forum administrators and forum policy than there is between warm wind and the price of gas.

Quote - I'd suggest there's a more causative link between forum administrators and forum policy than there is between warm wind and the price of gas.

True, if forum administrators and forum policy were the balancing/contrasting points of the original statement.  However, the tie-in had something to do with Rendo telling its vendors to make quality products rather than alter forum policy vs. freebie postings in the forum.

It is my suspicion that complaints by jealous renderosity merchants led to a change in policy concerning freebie announcements in the main Poser forum. Certainly, the average Poser users weren't clamoring for change, nor were the freebie creators. I suspect the change of policy didn't help sells or improve the lives of merchants in any way. The best thing a merchant can do to better his or her sells is to create something that people actually want. I guess I can still post work in progress type posts in the main Poser forum, as long as I don't give my figures away or sell them when I finish.

shrug  Please see my post several posts above this one -- on the previous page (I think).  You can't please everyone.  It simply isn't possible.  Whether or not merchants had problems with freebie postings in the Poser forum.......frankly, I don't personally know.  But I do know that no matter what the admins do, someone isn't going to like it.  Even if somebody else does like it.

BTW - vendors, as a group, don't always agree among themselves as to what policy should be, either.  No more than others do.  And so......the admins shape policy -- at least in part -- based upon attempting to please the greatest number of members (all of them with differing & often conflicting opinions) that they can.

the admins shape policy -- at least in part -- based upon attempting to please the greatest number of members (all of them with differing & often conflicting opinions) that they can. It's just that some of the members are more equal than others.

Quote - It's just that some of the members are more equal than others.

The 'more equal' ones being defined as those who are more-or-less happy with current policy, I suppose -- and who are therefore more-or-less in agreement with it.

Underneath, I'd say that 'more equal' is a matter of perception, rather than of fact.  Oftentimes, some people feel that because they don't run the show: this means that they've been cheated or perhaps overlooked somehow.  No, it doesn't mean that.  It just means that they don't own the business or determine the internal business policies themselves.......and that therefore there's no absolute guarantee that they'll end up getting their way.  Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them.

"Underneath, I'd say that 'more equal' is a matter of perception, rather than of fact.  Oftentimes, some people feel that because they don't run the show: this means that they've been cheated or perhaps overlooked somehow.  No, it doesn't mean that.  It just means that they don't own the business or determine the internal business policies themselves.......and that therefore there's no absolute guarantee that they'll end up getting their way.  Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them."

So true. There are rules that I think are just to Pzz me off and the odd rule to butter me up. In reality, it has nothing to do with what I think or want. It is the owners reasons for rule changes. All we can do is deal with them with hope of an even balance while others want it only thier way and will try to prove the squeeky wheel get's the grease.

After around 7 years of watching rule changes the only constant rule is someone is not going to like it. LOL.

Quote -

After around 7 years of watching rule changes the only constant rule is someone is not going to like it. LOL.

It took you 7?  :lol: j/k

In my observation, the "squeaky wheel principle" is a risky one to live by.  It's a gamble.  Sometimes squeaky wheels get grease.......and sometimes squeaky wheels end up burning in a tire fire at the local junkyard, replaced by a wheel that doesn't squeak.

Typically, the ultimate fate of the squeaking wheel depends upon the frequency and the volume of the squeaking, coupled with the temperament of the vehicle's driver.

Of course, like so many other man-made pearls of wisdom, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" has its antonym:  "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Over the years, I've seen examples of both principles in action -- both in my own life and in the lives of others.  Although I believe that I've seen a whole lot more resultant nail hammerin' going on than I have wheel greasin'.

LOL. No it didn't take me 7 years, It has been a constant rule FOR that 7 years. Give me a break, I not that slow though hanging around here for 7 years does give long term brain damage.

Yep, have seen a lot of hammering.

Getting hammered is not all that bad :biggrin:
The morning after headache, now that is a different story.

I'm totally teasing, Tashar ;)

Quote -
Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

I know that.  But they aren't likely to change things back to where individuals can advertise their own works in this forum.  If people continue to complain about the fact that "friends" can do it for the individual where else do you see this potentially going? 

For what it's worth, he's right.  The playing field is not level.  But it never was and it's very true that the squeaky wheel gets attention.  Sometimes it's not the attention we want and since the change Anton wants is not going to happen, the alternate very well could. 

I knew that Jen, I was joking too.

Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them. If you think that the merchants didn't hold more sway over policy than the vast majority of forum users who were satisfied with the Freebie announcements in the general Poser Forum, I'd consider that opinion as unrealistic as the suggestion that Renderosity seeks the greatest good for the greatest number.

Quote - > Quote -

Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

I know that.  But they aren't likely to change things back to where individuals can advertise their own works in this forum.  If people continue to complain about the fact that "friends" can do it for the individual where else do you see this potentially going? 

For what it's worth, he's right.  The playing field is not level.  But it never was and it's very true that the squeaky wheel gets attention.  Sometimes it's not the attention we want and since the change Anton wants is not going to happen, the alternate very well could. 

Yeah, what we have now may very well be the case of  'leave good enough alone'

on the other hand, please feel free to voice your opinion over in the poll thread - it's related this topic. Perhaps the admins are reading.

I'm actually surprized by how many people are saying they wouldn't be bothered with allowing commercial posts in here, as long as they can be tagged. Much like they are in DAZ commons. It appeard to be 3-4 people in favor of this to one opposing it.

So as much as I fear there may be people screaming about things being uneven and rules tightening even more, which I would hate... after reading answers to the poll, I'm not sure if my fear is not a bit overblown.

I don't know how flexible bondware is with little database related changes like adding more tags and checkboxes to forums etc.  I gather that Renderosity is in part a demo site for bondware, so if a database change of that nature is a PITA to do in bondware, that's not a plus for bondware. Flexibility to do changes like that is pretty much a necessity in theese kinds of storefront/community type online platforms.  I know a little bit about databases, and online databases. Having it programmatically difficult to add a few checkboxes and categories is not a good thing.

The way Anton brought it all up, I couldn't tell for the longest time if he was for or against allowing commercial posts in here. Sounded like he was against, and complaining that as of late some have drifted into commercial territory and hadn't been stopped and moved. I was thinking, oh, great, just what we need is tighter rules and someone pointing out that few threads are pushing the envelope and stirring malcontent. Looked like he was accusing admins of playing favoritisam towards a few threads that Anton pointed out.

Like he was trying to point to the admins some sort of an error of their ways - well, those kinds of things never go well. When I point to someone errors of their ways, it's usually when I hope to anger or frustrate them (in forum arguments), and can run off before there's a lot of backlash.

One more thing to add... if rules are changed/relaxed even more towards commercial postings, and it turns out to be too messy, well, they can always be changed back. We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules.

We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules. Actually, we're not writing anything here except posts.

Quote - We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules. Actually, we're not writing anything here except posts.

Pardon me, poor phrasing on my part. I should have said: We're not talking about writing a constitution, just forum rules.

Quote -
I'm actually surprized by how many people are saying they wouldn't be bothered with allowing commercial posts in here, as long as they can be tagged. Much like they are in DAZ commons. It appeard to be 3-4 people in favor of this to one opposing it.
.

if it were like the daz forums and open to all then I'd be all for it,but in keeping with rositys latest bout of new rules I cant see that happening, even if you could have commercialy tagged threads here they'd still be restricted to renderosity only products ...so why bother? :

Quote - If you think that the merchants didn't hold more sway over policy than the vast majority of forum users who were satisfied with the Freebie announcements in the general Poser Forum, I'd consider that opinion as unrealistic as the suggestion that Renderosity seeks the greatest good for the greatest number.

If you think that Renderosity doesn't want to make itself attractive to as large of an audience as possible: and that it therefore tailors its forum rules & other policies with that goal in mind (pleasing a greater number) -- then I'd consider that as unrealistic as the suggestion that legitimate input (regardless of the source) isn't listened to.

But once again: there's always the caveat (which some have a tremendously hard time grasping) that individual opinions -- no matter how sincere, or how passionately held -- do not a majority opinion make.  When you are dealing with a gigantic membership: then by necessity you have to take & judge things in the aggregate.  One, two, or even a half-a-dozen forum posters do not necessarily represent prevailing opinion for the rest of the membership.  They represent themselves only (Which is what I likewise represent in this instance.).

Claiming to speak for "the people" is always a handy semantic device -- used in an effort to portray one's own opinions as somehow being the opinions of a vast throng of protesters: and thereby giving those personal opinions greater weight.  But that's about as realistic as saying that one member is a "vast majority".

But some will only be convinced that everything is "fair" when it's all done their way.......as I've already mentioned.  Not calculating on the fact that quite a few other members (be they vendors or occasional forum posters) don't agree with them.

Ok, where is the poll? ;)

If you want to talk consistency where is it in the market place. Too many large images on the main page. Waisting client bandwidth and waiting to load.

Just a comment, not to change any subject.

Consistency in the rules should apply to all whether it be merchants or clients.

***And today's special is .... ;) Oops

***Cheers
Randy

If you think that Renderosity doesn't want to make itself attractive to as large of an audience as possible: and that it therefore tailors its forum rules & other policies with that goal in mind (pleasing a greater number) -- then I'd consider that as unrealistic as the suggestion that legitimate input (regardless of the source) isn't listened to. I think Renderosity wants the greatest good for the greatest number, within the context of the greatest profit and the least flack. But once again: there's always the caveat (which some have a tremendously hard time grasping) that individual opinions -- no matter how sincere, or how passionately held -- do not a majority opinion make. Are you contenting that the vast majority of Renderosity users were sick and tired of being told about free gifts in the main Poser forum? It's just commonsense to assume that the vast majority of the people didn't mind free stuff announcements in the main forum since people tend to like gifts. The only conceivable objections would be raised by merchants who coveted the permission to advertise in the main forum. The fact that the few were heeded enough that existing policy was changed should tell you that merchants have more influence around here than the average forum user, though the influence isn't yet absolute. If it was, we'd have creators starting advertisement threads in the main forum. Do I care enough about forum policy to not regret the time I took to write this response? umm…no