Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL


Subject: OT: you go, sulu!

dorkmcgork opened this issue on Jun 17, 2008 · 117 posts


megalodon posted Sat, 21 June 2008 at 2:11 AM

Quote - > Quote - a mother is preparing to bake bread. She gets all of the ingredients together - except the yeast. She puts the bread in the oven and when the timer goes off and she pulls it out of the oven she finds it has not risen. AND THEN SHE GETS MAD. Now of course she KNEW it would not rise because she intentionally left out the yeast - and YET...   she still got mad. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

Quote - Bad premise - bread dough doesn't have any concept of free will.

Quote - It is a GOOD premise. The "free will" aspect has nothing to do with it at all.

Actually, it does - there has been a metric ton (or so) of philosophical discussions concerning the tension between being creatures of God but at the same time having the free will to act contrary to His wishes. Your analogy is bad because someone making bread w/o yeast already knows in advance that the bread won't rise (or baking powder, which throws a curve ball into things, no?

A better analogy would that of a parent who warns the kid not to get a cookie from the kitchen, knows full well the kid will get one anyway, and when it happens, the parent scolds the kid with both barrels. Is the parent supposed to be nice about it?

Then you don't quite understand what omnisicent means. It does not matter if we have free will or not - IF GOD IS TRULY OMNISCIENT...  He will know what will happen whether we have free will or not. You seem not willing to accept that omniscient means All Knowing and All Seeing . The premise I presented is quite sound and I stated again (after initially stating it) that it did not matter whether or not free will is involved.

It does not matter if a person who has free will changes his mind today and rides the train and then goes into a store and steals $20. An Omniscient god would know this REGARDLESS of free will since he is an omnisicent God.

If you are saying that free will changes the equation, then you are admitting that God is not omniscient. You can't have it both ways.

And it doesn't matter what He wants. If humans "thwart his will" are you saying that he won't know the outcome? If so, he is not omniscient. If you are saying that he does know the outcome, then there is my point. Again, can't have it both ways.

And while we're on the subject of God...

What kind of God would require that you believe in Him and worship Him? I would say a pretty vain and arrogant god. Consider if YOU had the power to create living creatures from nothing. being a good person, would YOU want your creations to worship you and tell them that they MUST believe in you and if they don't they will be cast into a ppit of hellfire? 

I wouldn't. A small thank you would be sufficient and I would wish them well. I would hope that they would ultimately amount to something and let them exercise their free will. On the other hand...  were I omniscient and knew how my experiement would end..... I might change the ingredients. Like baking a loaf of bread....    :)