Pariah, when the web first opened to commercial use, the counters were a public way of bragging, "Hey, i'm popular!" Nowadays, if anyone is serious about their web stats, they go way, way beyond counter usage if at all possible. We do about a 30-something page WebTrends report every week for the site i work on, daytimes. And then there's the search enging optimization reports... Web rings generally have some requirements about putting the ring stuff on the page that you signed up with them, but i encourage people to PLEASE don't put that crap (ahem) at the top of the page! The rafts of banners, awards, ring adverts, and other kipple that clutter up some sites is... unnattractive, to say the least. Please put them on some page other than the first, and somewhere that's not above the fold. --Nan webmaster by day Poser maniac by night