Wow, Latexluv, I wish I had that set up where you just loaded people's pz3 files and checked it out. I'm basically clicking stuff, seeing what it does, researching unfamiliar phrases and trying to have fun. I think I've gone way past the obsession phase. I'm waking up doing formulas in my brain about how to better my projects and create complex models from simple shapes. Good tips Navarre and Colbaltdream. It would seem that in these instances a marriage of techniques always tends to be the answer. I enjoyed the good objectivity as well. Bagginsbill is a sick individual. anyone ever met him?