Quote - > Quote -  so to clarify, no more "where can i get a this or that?" hey. Is this correct?

According to jenX we can't actually ask this in product showcase forum either because that says vendors (ie noone else) are only are allowed to post about their products.
Love esther
PS I think we need to discuss this with site staff as JenX suggests.

***"However, to ease your mind, there are exceptions to the rule.  For instance, if someone were to ask "Does anyone know where I can get a pirate ship"? as a question in the forum, feel free to point them in the direction of pirate ships, both free and for sale. 

While you can't outright advertise them, and we shouldn't have allowed it in the first place, you CAN link to products, both free or for sale, should the need to answer a question arise.  "***

The only issue with this is I can see this exception getting out of hand... I remember at another site where the Artist and the Testers did just this... (or it may have been the Artist with Clone Accounts)

But there suddenly would be a question seeking a very specific item and about the same three or four that would reply saying they have never seen such an item, but it would be a good idea, or something similar (along with anyone else that decided to reply)

Within a Week or so, the Artist (always the same artist) would reply, hey, check out this Product, which was exactly what they were looking for... amazingly!

So basically, those artists or fans of the artists wanted to promote a product, all they have to do is ask about it specifically...

Even if people ask for a product, and get an answer, this isn't nearly the same as a 

"Bantha's whole Stuff at 50% !!!!!!!!"

in the caption. You can see in the forum how often a thread is read, feel free to compare on existing threads. Before anyone asks, no,I have no shop, so I can afford earning only half.... :biggrin:

Please remember, as JenX already mentioned three or four times:

This rule is an admin decision, the staff cannot change that here. If you want to see this rule changed, feel free to mail at admin@renderosity.com with your suggestions. And remember that angry rants most probably don't get the same attention as good arguments.

Here's the solution to all of the independant merchants who want their stuff to be noticed. Submit your product related freebies to Rendo's freestuff. Announce said freebies in the freesuff forum where it belongs and then link directly to the freebies on your site. Once the people see your site just make sure you have banners to all your nifty merchandise show up on said freebie page and ta da! You have your advert built into your own site and you advertised it with a freebie available in the freestuff here. Simple. Elegant. Solved.

If that means you have to package the basic textures to your product as a freebie and then uploading that here. So be it. The texture only works on your product and you make it highly visible that the freebie is an ADD ON to merchandise only available on your site.

Quote - Here's the solution to all of the independant merchants who want their stuff to be noticed. .....

The thing is, none of us whom 'got in trouble' here were advertising our own stuff. 
In my case, I saw people mention other prodcuct releases and sales a number of times, and I benefitted from that. Actually last time stonemason released something I missed it's introductory sale (because I don't hang out at DAZ all the time), and wound up buying it full price.

Like I said, I saw a fair number of new freebies and products announced in past weeks, so I thought it was ok.  Then, slam, all of a sudden it's a big deal. Big enough to ding you for TOS violation, no warning or heads up that they are changing their policy on how to enforce the rule.  As I said before, that's just not right, and creates ill will.

Makes me regret saying just few days ago how nice Rendo staff is.

I wasn't posting a solution to your TOS troubles Connie. The line you quoted tells you what the solution I posted was for. Basically I was saying that in the future, rethink your marketing structures and release a freebie to the freestuff forum here and that freebie will BE your product advertisement for independant store owners.

As to the current bout of belt tightening and TOS vouchers being handed out like candy, I thought they were talking to Admin about rescinding those for you guys. Did that fall through?

Quote - As to the current bout of belt tightening and TOS vouchers being handed out like candy, I thought they were talking to Admin about rescinding those for you guys. Did that fall through?

I didn't get any more feedback about it then what's here in the forums.
After I read that forum coordinatorsdon't issue TOS violations wiothout the 'upper level' approval, I can't tell you that my hopes are very high.  If anything, that was dishartening to hear, because I kept thinking, no, Jen and jumpstartme and other moderators here wouldn't penalize you 'that much' without posting a notice they're tightening policing the rules first.

I know 'everyone doing it' is not an excuse. But when 'everyone is doing it' and then all of a sudden three unsuspecting people were turned into an example, raises an eyebrow.  It's not like I habitually post theese things. Last time I posted anything even close of the sort was back in March, trying to strike up a conversation about 'Streets of the meditteranean' set coming out.

Yes, I'm pissy and grumbly. I've mostly been away from rendo forums for couple of months, and I come back to this crapola.

 I've had my posts deleted without much notice at all, but it's no biggie.

I think if you're going to enforce it vs. one, you really need to enforce it vs. all.  Daily threads pointing us to DAZ sales are exactly the same as this item, and they're left alone.  And don't wait for complaints, that is just another facet of favoritism - enforce it against ALL, or enforce it against NONE.  **Do not be selective!

**note: this is not a comment on the rules themselves, only pointing out that they're not being enforced with any consistency, which is very poor.

Nice Thread is broken already.

Quote -  I've had my posts deleted without much notice at all, but it's no biggie.

Here?  Really?  Because there's nothing in your member's record, and the system automatically puts something there when a post or gallery image of yours has been removed.

Please don't go out of your way to make us look bad, just because you want to hop on the bandwagon.   If you have a real gripe with us, please bring it up.  But don't just make stuff up because you feel like it.

Quote - I just noticed that the *oser forum (Are we still allowed to say the name of a Smith Micro product?) doesn’t have a link to Smith Micro where the software is available. This is like a fan club banning their favorite star because they can’t stand his manager.   

No, it just means I haven't updated the header yet.

Quote - Nice Thread is broken already.

Actually, we were having site connection problems.

Quote - It looked to me like Renderosity was retaliating after Smith Micro cut their ties. Of course, this could just be a projection on my part (easy to do when you're in the dark.)

I have no idea if that was it or maybe even the straw that broke the camel's back.  Feel free to ask an admin about that.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  so to clarify, no more "where can i get a this or that?" hey. Is this correct?

According to jenX we can't actually ask this in product showcase forum either because that says vendors (ie noone else) are only are allowed to post about their products.
Love esther
PS I think we need to discuss this with site staff as JenX suggests.

***"However, to ease your mind, there are exceptions to the rule.  For instance, if someone were to ask "Does anyone know where I can get a pirate ship"? as a question in the forum, feel free to point them in the direction of pirate ships, both free and for sale. 

While you can't outright advertise them, and we shouldn't have allowed it in the first place, you CAN link to products, both free or for sale, should the need to answer a question arise.  "***

The only issue with this is I can see this exception getting out of hand... I remember at another site where the Artist and the Testers did just this... (or it may have been the Artist with Clone Accounts)

But there suddenly would be a question seeking a very specific item and about the same three or four that would reply saying they have never seen such an item, but it would be a good idea, or something similar (along with anyone else that decided to reply)

Within a Week or so, the Artist (always the same artist) would reply, hey, check out this Product, which was exactly what they were looking for... amazingly!

So basically, those artists or fans of the artists wanted to promote a product, all they have to do is ask about it specifically...

To be honest, that's the why of tightening the reigns.  We changed the TOS in March, and have tried to be forgiving to the members who had no actual stake in the advertisement at hand.  Between the plethora of fan posts and the few and far between sneaky "I'll get my friend to post my ad" posts, the complaints coming in were ridiculous.  

Oh, and btw, to those who mention that complaints about products not working, or not working as well as they should....sorry, those posts are NOT a TOS violation.  And, seriously, not allowing dissenting posts in the forum?   Are you f-ing kidding me?   You think you guys are pissed because you can't advertise stuff?  The site would shut down, and I don't mean maybe.  Good grief.  There's a huge difference between advertising and talking about the program that the freaking forum is for.  

Quote - > Quote - As to the current bout of belt tightening and TOS vouchers being handed out like candy, I thought they were talking to Admin about rescinding those for you guys. Did that fall through?

I didn't get any more feedback about it then what's here in the forums.
After I read that forum coordinatorsdon't issue TOS violations wiothout the 'upper level' approval, I can't tell you that my hopes are very high.  If anything, that was dishartening to hear, because I kept thinking, no, Jen and jumpstartme and other moderators here wouldn't penalize you 'that much' without posting a notice they're tightening policing the rules first.

I know 'everyone doing it' is not an excuse. But when 'everyone is doing it' and then all of a sudden three unsuspecting people were turned into an example, raises an eyebrow.  It's not like I habitually post theese things. Last time I posted anything even close of the sort was back in March, trying to strike up a conversation about 'Streets of the meditteranean' set coming out.

Yes, I'm pissy and grumbly. I've mostly been away from rendo forums for couple of months, and I come back to this crapola.

I've talked to admin.  As it was after business hours when the request went in, it's taking some time to deal with.  Patience is a virtue, and you'll be notified via email.

I was also given a TOS violation yesterday, I think, the email I was sent had another members name on it that was issued a TOS.

Just one less reason to read the forums here now. I came here to find out what was going on in the WHOLE poser community, not just what's going on here.

So when a new version of poser is released, is THAT post off limits as well, since technically, it's commercial?

And shouldn't all the new "Vue 7" posts also be deleted since technically now, those are commercial and are off limits as well now?

or are we just picking and choosing what sites to censor?

Just one less reason to read the forums here now. I came here to find out what was going on in the WHOLE poser community, not just what's going on here.So when a new version of poser is released, is THAT post off limits as well, since technically, it's commercial?And shouldn't all the new "Vue 7" posts also be deleted since technically now, those are commercial and are off limits as well now?or are we just picking and choosing what sites to censor?

Ok, seriously, don't be stupid.  Why would we NOT post when a new version of Poser comes out?  Poser and Vue are the programs that people in this community use.  Yes, while Vue has it's own forum here, it's also used by many Poser users to complete their final renders, so YES it has a place here.

So, because you can't post your ads for products at DAZ, RDNA, CP, or wherever, we shouldn't allow PROGRAM related posts?  Again, quit with the over-reaching.  It makes you look stupid, and I know you're not. 

I'm not the one making a blanket statement that commercial posts are not allowed.. and I can't even recall the last time I made a commercial post here.. maybe last summer sometime?

And how would say, a plugin for poser be any different then an actual application post?

All I'm saying is that you obviously ARE picking and choosing who to censor. I say either stick to yuor guns and policy and delete them all, or rethink your policy, and how it affects your community here.

Gareee, do you only pick and chose what you read?  IT IS NOT MY POLICY!!!

I've stated at least 20 times in the last 24 hours who to talk to to voice your opinion.  Waxing on the forums isn't the place. 

So, because you can't post your ads for products at DAZ, RDNA, CP, or wherever, we shouldn't allow PROGRAM related posts?

you can post ad's at Daz - 1 per week
there is an entire forum at CP for non site ad's.

sorry.. needed correcting.

I didn't say that, Khai.  Quit reading stuff I didn't say into what I'm posting.  I'm saying that we've decided that you can't post your ad for products sold there here.  Nothing more.  Jesus H.  Christ. 

I didn't say it was your personal policy, Jen.. but as a mod, you are a rep of renderosity, and as as a rep, it is your website's policy.

Khai.. my point was about applications for poser as well.. say, shader spider.. it's an application plugin for poser.. so is it a commercial post that should be banned, or is it an application, that is allowed?

As I stated, I can't even remember the ast time I made any commercial post here.. it would be in the product showcase, if someone is anal enough to want to look it up.

enoght. no blasphemy please.

I quoted your EXACT words., nothing more nothing less.
if you cannot conduct yourself in a polite manner please ask another staff member to post in your stead.
there is no need for that here.

putting a complaint about that into the admins Jen. there is no need for behaviour like that at all.

I'm going to say this again.

Garee, all of your questions have ACTUALLY been answered.  Should you have a question re: Shader Spider, post away.  If you want to advertise about it, forget it.

Khai, you quoted my exact words, and took them out of context.  I'm holding my cool as much as possible, but you're going out of my way to push my buttons.  

sorry. complaint put into the admins about your behaviour in this thread. namely yelling at users and now blasphemy.

I have nothing more to say to you. it is now in the hands of the admins.

Thanks, Khai.  Muchly appreciated. 

Quote - I didn't say it was your personal policy, Jen.. but as a mod, you are a rep of renderosity, and as as a rep, it is your website's policy.

Khai.. my point was about applications for poser as well.. say, shader spider.. it's an application plugin for poser.. so is it a commercial post that should be banned, or is it an application, that is allowed?

As I stated, I can't even remember the ast time I made any commercial post here.. it would be in the product showcase, if someone is anal enough to want to look it up.

I meant "you" collectively, not directly, but well, whatever.  I guess I should have been way more clear.

I may be a mod and rep of Renderosity, but the answer I gave you was to take it to admin.  I can't change a thing.  The best I can do is point an admin to this thread.  They may or may not look at it.  If it's their prerogative, they may chose to ignore it due to the hundreds of other complaints IN THE OPPOSING VIEW that they get daily.  However, they never ignore sitemails or emails.  THAT is why I urge you guys, if you want to see change, make it happen.  I can't do it for you.  I can gently nudge, but that's about it.  You guys have more power than I do in that matter.

One more thing....

You guys are always on about "oh, this is breaking down the community!!" in one breath, and some of you are decrying the commercialism of the community in another.
Make up your freaking minds.

Renderosity wasn't started as a store.  It was started as a learning and sharing community.  It is no longer the learning and sharing community that I remember.  The reason I decided to be a moderator (well, first a coordinator) was to give back to the community, in ways that I knew how.  Now...I get more complaints in a day now about really stupid stuff than I ever thought possible.  One look in my inbox makes me question whether or not adults generate our populous or not.  Community is gone, but it's not solely Renderosity's fault.  

Why can't  we get back to learning?   My "Tutorialism" post in the header sits, not updated for months, because there are no forum tutorials to post there.  Why can't we get back to the sharing of knowledge?  We have some ridiculous intelligence in this community, and it's not shared as often as it used to be.  

TOS changes come about when we get enough complaints from the COMMUNITY that it makes our actual jobs hard.  Do you think I want to sit on the forum all day and fight back and forth about this?  I'd rather be learning new, interesting things to do with Poser.  I'd rather be perfecting my artwork.  I'd rather NOT BE FIGHTING.

 part of l earning and sharing is not just the technical aspects.  The 3d models are like our paintbrushes and we place them in our scenes to make our pretty pictures.  Models and getting them and finding them are all part of the learning and sharing.
Okay, I know you don't make the rules.  But this new rule will really put a damper on things if we can't talk about where to find stuff.
Love esther

Wow! I miss everything :( I read the top sticky, and looked in the forum list and the marketplace forum is still there,so I take it Admin wants comercial posts in the proper place?  I am not a vendor anywhere so maybe I'm missing the reason for all the fuss, is it because the poser forum gets more veiws? The marketplace forum isn't nearly as popular, so I would suppose from a sales point of veiw it would be more appealing to post comercials in the Poser forum, or am I missing the point?

Well whichever, I'm still happy to have a place to ask questions and shoot the bull about poser related things. I usually get an answer here much faster than anywhere else I have ever tried, so I'm not complaining.

Maybe a petition from all concerned to the admin might resolve things, I don't think JenX has the power to do it so you'll all have to go to those who do.

To be honest, that's the why of tightening the reigns.  

Actually the word you are looking for is reins which is the part of a horse's tack used to control it. Reigns the word you used  would be the what a current king does over his kingdom.

:P

wow. After all this, I'm not sure how much help I'm gonna be around here any more (as if I was all that much..;) Ever since LD passed the Finder of Lost Things Hat to Acadia, about the only constructive thing I do is point out where some things can be found...;)

oh well, I can still be disruptive and barely amusing..;)

So, in all the back in forth; if someone says "where can I find good hair?", we do, or do not, tell them?  S'all I'm askin' I usually just give a site name, rarely a link. And then only to free stuff at that.

pakled, please read the whole post.  You CAN post links to items, free or for sale.

If you guys find my post a bit irritated...it's because i've posted the same answer in just about every post I've made.  PLEASE read the announcement.  Seriously.  I answer all the questions you guys ask up there.   

Quote -

To be honest, that's the why of tightening the reigns.  

Actually the word you are looking for is reins which is the part of a horse's tack used to control it. Reigns the word you used  would be the what a current king does over his kingdom.

:P

Yeah, sorry.  I mispell once in a while :P  

Quote -  part of l earning and sharing is not just the technical aspects.  The 3d models are like our paintbrushes and we place them in our scenes to make our pretty pictures.  Models and getting them and finding them are all part of the learning and sharing.
Okay, I know you don't make the rules.  But this new rule will really put a damper on things if we can't talk about where to find stuff.
Love esther

Never said that.  If someone asks where to find something, specifically or themed, you CAN share links.  You just can't make advertising posts.

Quote - > Quote -

To be honest, that's the why of tightening the reigns.  

Actually the word you are looking for is reins which is the part of a horse's tack used to control it. Reigns the word you used  would be the what a current king does over his kingdom.

:P

Yeah, sorry.  I mispell once in a while :P  

Nah I misspell words now and then you just used the wrong word  easy to goof on that one though at least you dont do what so many people on the net do and use ur for your and crap like that.

Jen, a simple question, I know your only a mod here, like my mate moebius87 of Dystoipia fame was, and as you say only a rep for them, have you thought to ask any of the admin crew to take a look at this thread, ( if they'll listen to you that is) and get them to actually take notice of the folk who keep the site going, it might be time they took another look at what's going on here, and possibly make a change for the better, they've already lost some of the top vendors because of their attitude towards us, now it looks like they're also trying to alienate the folk who are the most important, the regular members who are doing nothing but posting their art here.

Cheers

Billy

billy, while I appreciate the sentiment, honestly I'm telling you that the extra effort made by you guys works in YOUR favor.  If I point them here, they see the dozens of posts asking the same question over and over that's been answered over and over.  They see dozens of people who aren't listening to the answers they're given, and see it as a fruitless effort.

If you (collectively) make your voices heard individually to the admin, you have a better chance of being listened to.   Especially if you're calm, well-informed, and willing to hear the answer "no" without going off the deep end.

Quote - Especially if you're calm, well-informed, and willing to hear the answer "no" without going off the deep end.

You can't be serious!  

Quote - > Quote - Especially if you're calm, well-informed, and willing to hear the answer "no" without going off the deep end.

You can't be serious!  

Occasionally, I am serious.  

Question 1)
One thought, is the wording of the TOS clause actually good enough ?

"Commercial posts/images may only be uploaded by Active Renderosity Vendors to the MarketPlace Showcase Forum/Gallery"

This wording allows someone who is an active vendor here to advertise any product whether sold here or not.
There is no suggestion that adverstising of products not sold here is forbidden, even if this is intent (and the unwritten policy).

Question 2)
If the original TOS change came about as a response to complaints, what level of complaining will bring about a reversal ?

Question 3)
Is making policy and TOS changes based on complaints really a good idea ?
All the recent changes that have been claimed to be based on complaints have been implemented without any consultation beforehand followed by tinkering once it's realised that they've been overdone, then by inconsistent enforcement as a way of mitigating the divisive affects, then by outbreaks of over enforcement which lead to a rash of warnings and counter complaints.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Especially if you're calm, well-informed, and willing to hear the answer "no" without going off the deep end.

You can't be serious!  

Occasionally, I am serious.  

Well I'm just tryin' to lighten the mood and put a smile on your face in all this silliness. Look! Outside! The sun is shinning! It's a beautiful day! Well it is here anyway since the rain and clouds have dispersed.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2754697&page=2