Hi,
 Looking over the very confusing pricing and comparisons on the new Vue products it seems to me that upgrading to Vue 7 Complete causes a loss in functions that Vue 6 Infinite had.
As i am not willing to spend at this time the upgrade price to Vue7 Infinite,  Are there enough new features to justify the investment to Vue 7 complete or am I better off to just stick with 6 Infinite?
   Having been away from Vue for awhile I am truly interested in your advice.
cheerio  lululee
 

The answer to that question depends entirely on what you want to do with Vue.

So, I was looking now at your gallery to understand what type of images you make and if what's in the gallery is representative of what you want to do in the future, I would say you do not need Vue 7.

If, on the other hand, you want to change your style and want to do wide open landscapes with infinite terrains, if you want new and more realistic clouds, if you want to be able to paint ecosystems in the main view, if you want to make rough oceans and control the foam on the waves and shores... if the answer to all of these points is positive, then yes you should upgrade to Vue 7.

Hi Rutra,
    My recent Poser gallery images are more of a Vargas style primarily on white backgrounds. I would like to continue with pinups but have them outside in nature in more interesting natural environments.
   With the current economy I want to make sure that I atually get MORE advanced tools to create with rather than spending my time doing beta testing for glitchy software.
   I like working with Skin Vue. I am told that until E-On gets the proper code to work in Vue 7 Complete it is unusable at this time.
   I feel it is a good time to be more discriminating and realistic as to what the software manufacturers are actually delivering compared to what they are saying will be fixed.
  I just want to make an educated, realistic decision as to what is a "good' purchase.
Based on what you tell me it can deliver, I feel good about purchasing Vue 7 Complete.
BTW, The art in your gallery is unbelievably inspiring.
cheerio  lululee

Here's the page where the new features of Vue7 Infinite are described.

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_7_infinite/?page=1

Vue 7 Complete doesn't have all of these new features, but it has most of them. The comparison between Complete and Infinite can be found here:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_7_complete/?page=chart

Tick the checkbox "Vue 7 Infinite" and click on "Compare". You'll see a page with all features, side by side. You can then tick "only show differences" and the list is much smaller. You should check if any of these differences is important for you before making the decision for Complete.
For example, one important difference is that Complete only uses 4 CPU's maximum, whereas Infinite will use all. If you have an 8 core machine (or intend to buy one) this could be a major factor for decision.

(thanks for the compliment. :-))
 

 Rutra, really...?

Vue 6,  "can do wide open landscapes with infinite terrains, if you want new and more realistic clouds, if you want to be able to paint ecosystems in the main view, if you want to make rough oceans and control the foam on the waves and shores," Vue 6 can do all this if the time is taken to learn the controls save the painting in the perspective window.

And by doing these things with vue 6 instead of 7 the program is understood better, since a slider is not doing the creating.

There is practically a boycott on vue 7 (go to e-on forums) because of the outrageous pricing and the fact that it is still beta with many bugs that were promised to be fixed last year.

When will poser imports work fully on mac?

E-on is losing customers fast with the higher prices, less stable beta software.

I predict the price will come down in the next few months.   Be patient.  Don't pay a premium price to upgrade software that is working better, namely vue 6.

So go make something with Vue 6!

Lululee, not to put more pressure on your shoulders, but once you decide to get Complete, you're stuck with it. There is no upgrade/sidegrade path from Complete to Infinite.
Be sure to read very well the comparative chart, I know a user was very disappointed that HDR maps couldn't be altered in Complete (luminosity/contrast).This feature was very important to him, and by bying Complete, he lost it permanently.
And as far as "beta testing" goes, there is no such thing with Infinite, even if you hear the opposite. There are a few glitches and bugs, but it is 99% rock solid imho.
The Poser problem on the mac gets people furious, yes, but those how use Vue as a professional tool couldn't care less about Poser. I remember Eran Dinur's comment when Vue6 was shown at Siggraph that he didn't get a single question about Poser import.
Complete is still a Pre-release, so I suppose there are more problems in it atm. And no python yet (e.g. SkinVue), though it will be implemented according to the Complete feature list.

Hi lululee,
I agree with what Rutra has said (he's usually right! :-))
It's a difficult decision to make, I sidegraded to Complete from 6 Inf, then regretted it because I missed the comparison point about changing exposure and contrast for environment maps, which I use a lot in 6Inf. At the moment I'm toppling on a decision to change from 7Complete to 7Infinite because of this, and will probably go to 7Inf (if e-on let me, which at the moment is looking good (pls. keep your fingers crossed for me)
As far as the question of staying with 6 or updating to 7 is concerned, the anti-aliasing is VERY much improved, and the depth of field as well. Both very interesting for figure studies.
If you don't do animations or compositing, then Complete could be very interesting. However please bear in mind what Rutra said about the number of cpus - this also includes the new (4) core i7 Intels, which thank hyperthreading are seen as 8 cpus....
Also, officially, there is no upgrade path from Complete to Infinite at the moment.
Regarding SkinVue, I can't make a comment, but there is an identified problem using Poser shaders under particular conditions - it has been identified, and I am confident that it will be addressed (it seems to be a problem with Smith Micro's Development Kit, they're working on a fix together)
Maybe the advice is to wait a little bit before deciding? - dunno, but I am convinced that Vue 7 in one form or another is/will be worth it.
Hope this helps
Rob

P.S. Like your Gallery themes :-)

Hi lululee,

I like to use characters in Vue and have just recently upgraded  to complete from Vue 6 Infinite, I believe it can do all that I need it to, only with a better and faster render engine.

The point Rutra makes about 'the CPU's maximum' was the only real reason that made my decision difficult, but made easier by not being able to afford another machine for a while and only $99 for the upgrade.

Another point that might be a factor, by looking at your gallery, the better render engine in 7 produces far nicer hair, Vue 6 was rubbish IMHO.

Chris

I agree poser hair in Vue 7 Inf is far, far better looking and renders nicer than in Vue 6Inf. I was amazed at the difference.

Chris, the render engine in Vue 7 produces far better TRANSMAPPED (not shouting, just a little bit louder :-)) hair. Dynamic hair still doesn't perform as advertised (since Vue5). It is an issue that e-on know about, and are apparently working on. I think the difference is due to the improved antialising settings

Rob

Rob, Your right, I should of mentioned it was trans mapped hair, I've given up on correct dynamic hair support ;,)

Chris

Quote - Rob, Your right, I should of mentioned it was trans mapped hair, I've given up on correct dynamic hair support ;,)

Chris

Yup agreed!

@CobraEye,

Quote - "Vue 6,  "can do wide open landscapes with infinite terrains, if you want new and more realistic clouds, if you want to be able to paint ecosystems in the main view, if you want to make rough oceans and control the foam on the waves and shores," Vue 6 can do all this if the time is taken to learn the controls save the painting in the perspective window."

Yes, maybe if you dedicate a lot of time and have a lot of knowledge, I guess you could do in Vue 6 something similar to a Vue 7 "infinite terrain". I would love to see your attempts at this. :-)

Yes, maybe if you dedicate a lot of time and have a lot of knowledge, I guess you could do in Vue 6 something similar to a Vue 7 "spectral-2 clouds". I would love to see your attempts at this. :-)
I have tried and failed.

Yes, maybe if you dedicate a lot of time and have a lot of knowledge, I guess you could do in Vue 6 something similar to the results you can get with the Vue 7 "water editor". I would love to see your attempts at this. :-) I have tried and only partially succeeded.

Anyway, your comments are also generally true if you have just Vue 5. Why even buy Vue 6?
With a bit more of time and knowledge, you could maybe even do it in Vue 4. :-)

Quote - "And by doing these things with vue 6 instead of 7 the program is understood better, since a slider is not doing the creating."

So, do you advocate that programs should be difficult to handle? Extrapolating your idea, then instead of sliders we should have, say, scripts and text commands? Hmm... I've seen this somewhere... Yes, I remember, in the 80's many things were like this! :-)

Quote - "There is practically a boycott on vue 7 (go to e-on forums) because of the outrageous pricing and the fact that it is still beta with many bugs that were promised to be fixed last year."

e-on forums? Those were invaded by a small group of people who just have to post on each single thread, always bashing Vue and always repeating the same things. Because they seem like an echo, they seem like a big crowd. I don't go there anymore and wouldn't advise anyone to go. It's a very unpleasant place to go.

Quote - "I predict the price will come down in the next few months."

That's not too hard to predict because every manufacturer has promotions now and then. :-)

you guys crack me up =D

Lululee...

Ultimately the choice will always be yours, and boy am I glad you've been asking these questions, because it's actually made me stop & think.

you've been doing the pinup styles on white backgrounds, correct?  (stunning style, btw... i played with it briefly to see if i could do it LOL)... but are wanting to do the pinups in a more natural environment?

Before you put your money down on upgrading....

Take your pinups into Vue 6 Inf and put them in the landscapes you are imagining.  You say you have been away from Vue for a while... have you also been away from your own copy of Vue?  If so, then what are you waiting for?  Your Vue is waiting to be friends again! 

And as CobraEyes said...  unless these SPECIFIC features interest you greatly... most everything can be done in Vue 6Inf (ok, so you can't eco-paint in EVERY view - whooptie!  dont think you can ecopaint at ALL in Complete, can you?).

I went from 6 pro studio to 7inf.  I had hoped on having 6inf in the middle so I would know all the "bells and whistles" before 7 came out, but it wasn't ment to be.  In essence, I am currently struggling with a very VERY big learning curve - but its cool, cus its getting a LOT better =D

you have 6 inf... have you learned most of the ins & outs of it?  without using skinvue - can you create good looking skin?  what about finding the object to distance below node in the function editor?  for that matter.... can you find the function editor? (im not kidding - i had to make screenshots for a buddy who couldn't find it)... ohhh, here's a good one... how about mixed & layered materials?  or creating a distribution map for a terrain (mix of 2D grayscale work & Vue)...  You are fortunate, Lulu... you HAVE eco-painting, and you HAVE nodes that make life easier, and you HAVE skinvue to make skin easier - these things pro didnt have.  an image i created for a contest here in alaska had over 15 ecosystems on one terrain - and everything was mapped with distribution maps (and terrain/height maps).  If i had had infinite - it woulda been eco-painted, and I wouldnt have as much knowledge as i do now using the nodes & functions & differences in layers versus mixed materials.

Do you KNOW your version of Vue yet?  If not... then why trade it in yet?  I cant say I was a Guru in pro studio, nor am i a guru in 7 inf, nor am i a guru with materials & functions (i looked at something skinvue spit out... and OMG... i was lost in the spaghetti in there)....  but I felt i KNEW Pro Studio before i made the jump... and I was completely ready and had no doubts which one I wanted.

I know the pricing right now is very good (relatively speaking)... but as you said, "in this economy".

I dont mean to be so prying... and it is not my intention to sound judgemental about "knowing" your version of vue... but you sound to me like you are wanting to explore more of the possibilities Vue has to offer - and you have the perfect opportunity sitting on your computer right now. (more than likely LOL)

Let us know how it goes =D
and good luck on deciding!
hope my little bit helps in some way....
~meli  (STILL wanting to know what shoe that is in your avatar)

Quote - "And as CobraEyes said...  unless these SPECIFIC features interest you greatly... most everything can be done in Vue 6Inf"

It was me who said that, not CobraEye. I said that lululee should get Vue 7 if those new features I mentioned interest her.

Quote - " so you can't eco-paint in EVERY view - whooptie!  dont think you can ecopaint at ALL in Complete, can you?"

All ecosystem features are available in Complete. Melikia, check the link I gave earlier.

I disagree with Melikia about having to learn the lower versions before you get the top tools. It is a common misguided (IMO) approach to say 'I'll try with the cheap/limited/inferior products first, and when I'm better I'll try the more expensive ones. If you dont have good tools you may never get better!
I've seen similar approaches in other fields - I paint watercolors, and if I started with the cheapest paper and pigments I would have stopped almost immediately. ( I tried later the lower quality product - couldnt get anything to work.)
So, I have v6inf and I think v7 will be much better. Complete seems to have all the exciting new features - painting ecos in all windows is extremely useful. (you can eco-paint in complete). I wished this option existed in v6. I was often hampered by the top-view restriction. Just that alone is worth upgrading IMO.   There are other exciting features (at least in theory) - compare v7complete to v6 inf  and see for yourself.
Bottom line - as was said before, look at the comparison list very carefully and see if you need it.
Obviousely if you cant afford upgarding - so be it. But complete seems to be reasonably priced for an upgrade, and adds nice tools.
PS - there is another thread discussing the ability (or lack of) to sidegrade complete->inf. E-on seems to make tiny steps in this direction, but it isnt  an official policy yet.

oops, sorry for misquote, rutra =D  (bows to Vue guru and giggles)

(complete & eco-painting)
Really?  oh wow... i missed that earlier... oh, i see why... silly  "only differences" button & wasnt looking specifically for that LOL.

now THERES one i recently learned to utilize....
Multi-pass rendering!  Complete doesnt have this (why not???  its terribly handy!!)

but my post wasnt so much on 7 complete & 7 infinite & what they contain, but pointing out that what Lulu has right now can do the landscapes for her pinups, and now is a good time as any to start. 

I like playing devil's advocate, Rutra (if you havent noticed)... I can see an issue or situation from many different sides and bring them to awareness.  Lululee is wanting opinions on which one to go for.  The best opinion is her own.

As there is no upgrade path from Complete to Infinite, and from what I have been hearring and understanding (again, miles may vary and i am human, too, no matter how much i purr & pretend i am feline LOL)... there WONT be.

TH is already regretting the choice he made.  Others are more than likely pleased as punch with their choice of "complete versus infinite" - but they haven't stepped forward yet.

I was opening up the possibility that Lululee sit back, play with what she has, and watch what happens with 7 for a little longer to make an even better and more informed choice based on personal knowledge.

once again, sorry about the mis-quote, Guru Rutra =D 
(CobraEye was covering basically what I was saying about learning the deeper features.... which was why that nickname got stuck in my head - i have brain to fingers mistranslations, and while i try to check my posts 3 or 4 times before sending, i still miss things like this on occassion - at least i can admit i mucked up ;) LOL)

Nonono, Artpearl... you misunderstood... or i wasnt clear enough (probably that one LOL, im bad about that).......  Lululee HAS 6 infinite - i'm not saying go with a lower-end application and learn on that FIRST... if i had purchased 6 infinite first, i woulda learned on it (very happily). 

I just  wouldnt have learned quite as much (i dont THINK - not yelling, emphasizing) because i was forced to figure out ways around those nifty tools i didnt have.  Im not even saying ignore the nifty features that are there!

i WISH (emphasizing again LOL) i had 6 Inf to do a side-by-side comparison, but i cannot.

I HAVE 7 Inf, and i LOVE it.  I wont go back to 6 pro studio no matter how much i loved it.

Lulu HAS a high-end application that will do exactly what she said she wanted from 7... "landscapes" to put her pinups in... and while she's figuring out what she is wanting... can play with that and see....

It isnt fair to be devil's advocate when it may be discouraging to someone...I have a hard time deciding to spend any money now, so if I was unsure about what I want/need I may have second thoughts after reading you advocating restraints...she is obviously interested in something new, may have the funds and isnt reckless about the buying process, so why hold her back?
She was adviced wisely before to study the comparison table - she can learn from it what was added/removed compared to v6inf, what else is there to say?
You may not have meant it, but it sounds like you say 'I've moved on to v7, but you arnt qualified yet for the big boys league, play with what you have...'
By the way, you also arnt accurate about the state of complete-infinite sidegrade,
as I said look in the other thread
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3363418
TH can switch to infinite but it isnt clear YET if its general policy or not.

I thank everyone for your splendid comments and advice.
I had a hard drive crash 2 months ago wiping out my entire OS. I have not re installed Vue 6 Infinite yet. That is the first thing I will do.
   My computer is a dual core with 4 gigs of ram so it is quite strong.
I do really love the beauty of the vegatation in Vue and artistically would like to grow so I am seriously considering the upgrade to Vue7 Complete.
   I do most of my animation in Max and edit in Avid. My past experience with animating in Vue was disasterous. The flicker was terrible but I do like it for stills.
I will re install Vue and get my feet wet again.
melikia, the shoe on my avatar is from Jim Burton's " Victoria Night Life Shoe Pak". V2 and shoes were my  very first Poser purchases. Says a lot about a pinup artist doesn't it. As long as the model has cherry red lipstick and great shoes everything will work out just fine.
cheerio   lululee

Quote - "The flicker was terrible but I do like it for stills. "

I don't do animations but I remember reading somewhere that Vue7 has solved this problem, at least to a large extent. I could be wrong though, someone please correct me if that's the case.

Not holding her back either - wanting her to be perfectly happy with her purchase when... or if... she makes it.  Meanwhile, while she's wavering over the choice, why not play with 6 infinite and push it a little further?

I wasnt trying to be discouraging in any manner, either... actually - the opposite - i was attempting in my (apparently bungling) manner to EN-courage her.  All the upgrades in the world wont matter if you dont use the program itself - and i think we can all (or most???) agree with that. 

She stated she hadn't used Vue in a while - I was curious what she's done with it in the past.  It (the questioning) was also designed to help HER  look closely at what she intends to use it for... so she can then (again) make the best choice - to upgrade, to not upgrade, to get complete, to get infinite... whatever!  She asked for assistance in making that choice, so I did what I could.

and i said "and from what I have been hearring and understanding (again, miles may vary and i am human, too," - i qualified it with the fact that i am HUMAN (emphasis, not yelling) with limited knowledge -  and i make mistakes, too.  I didn't read that thread you linked until now, as I (NOW... chuckles) have infinite and the upgrade path from complete to infinite just didnt interest me when the alert hit my inbox that the thread had been created. 

So, out of curiosity... why is it whenever I share my opinions and thoughts, i end up getting bashed on?  Is it because I am "still" not in the same league with ... say... Rutra (sorry, Rutra... you're what i consider a Guru, so a league of your own there LOL) and yourself, ArtPearl? 
Is/are my knowledge, thoughts and ideas any less valuable than say... yours?  is it because i DO like to play devil's advocate?  Or because I jump in and try to help, even if i bungle things sometimes?

At no point did i say she wasnt qualified, nor implied it - i was asking questions about what she DOES (emphasis again) know, and i hope she does upgrade, actually - i love 7 and i would like others to have it as well!  If you read the other thread she started, you'll see i didnt even once recommend her staying with what she had.

I was offering another ideas out there, as i said.  WHILE she is choosing - why not try those ideas she has in what she has????

Tell the truth, Art... If 6 Inf had still been offered when I went to purchase, I would have more than likely ended up with that one first, and then eventually upgraded to 7 infinite.  So please do NOT (emphasis) say or think that I sound like i am saying "I moved on to 7, but you aren't qualified yet".

I got that stupid attitude from a lot of 6inf users when i was still using esprit and Pro Studio.  I will not pass it along.  EVER.

And for the record...

I still dont feel qualified for 7INF, but i am growing into it!

niiice shoes, Lulu... you're right... great shoes and great lipstick make a great pinup... but so does great posing, lighting, and what he artist puts into it ;)

LOL

reinstalling stuff sucks =(

and if you feel complete is best for you, im all for that for you!  im interested in seeing what all you do... (btw, i love your pinup style... am REALLY interested in how you'll incorporate nature into it....)

LOL - just thought of something... been calling you a female, i do hope i'm right =D

Hi melikia,
  You are correct. I am female carbon based human.
cheerio  lululee

yay!  the shoes gave it away ;)

j/k... i usually guess by nicknames - but have ended up with my foot in my mouth doing that - yet its one of those things i just cant seem to "learn" to check before assuming.

am female as well here.  =D

Melikia,
You think I'm in a league? really? Hmm... no idea where that comes from, but being in a league sounds nice - thank you, brightened my day a bit:)
My comment had nothing to do with leagues, but I must admit it annoys me when people give inaccurate (or wrong) information in a thread, so that may have come out as 'bashing'. Maybe it's because you are a much nicer person than me, and want to be helpful as often as posible, so you comment a lot and add things even if you're not sure about them. It is your right to do so, and as I said in general terms your intentions and actions are nicer than mine,
but it is also my right to point out when you got things wrong.
The issue  about using the best tools you could possibly afford is an issue I had for a long time - you just happen to awaken this sleeping dog...
Also, a nice new tool can rekindle an interest that died even if the old tool could in theory do a similar job.
FYI:
I dont know either if lulu is a 'he' or a a 'she', but I know I'm female, my name isnt Art (hopefully art is what I do), my name is Pnina which is Hebrew for 'Pearl'.

(btw, any STRONGLY typed words are for emphasis, not yelling... i rarely actually yell online, it makes no sense LOL)

Pearl~
please, PLEASE feel free to use your right (giggles, you're correct there, it IS a right) to point out to me when I mess up something (like the upgrade path) - i am ALWAYS more than open to someone saying "hey - yer facts are skewed, here look at this..."

how else am i to learn? =D  I'll even freely say "yep - yer right, my bad!  do as so-and-so says and not what i said LOL"  I've even been known to change my opinions on things based on facts.

I just don't like my character being attacked, and thats what it felt like.  I've had it before from the ones I consider the "gurus" here, and I will not stand for it.  I'll denounce it as politely as possible, but I won't stand for it.

as for the tools versus affording.  Here's a fun fact for you:  I wouldnt have 7 infinite even now if it wasn't for the fact that a state agency purchased it for me - vocational rehabilitation.

I am disabled and on a very  VERY limited fixed income.   i couldnt even afford to get 6inf on my own, although I managed to get up to Pro Studio without (much) help.  So yes, I understand all too well how finances can hold someone back.  Another reason I say - look at what you have and what you think your future might hold for you.

But what shocked... no, wrong word... confused?  i dunno LOL.... but anyways it did something to me... me was the way you worded it - it sounded as if you thought that now that 7 is out, ANYTHING in the 6 line is now considered "inferior" - and it isn't the case.  far from it!

Watercolor (i skipped that reference earlier somehow... eyes go too fast sometimes?) - i agree, student grade watercolors just lead to irritation and crappy results, and pro grade improves the possibilities.  ...But not everything operates that way... Esprit for instance.  When I got it, i was pleased as punch - WOW.  i was amazed at everything it COULD do.  At that time, it was everything I could have wanted from a program.

Then, i found out what INFINITE had, and i started dreaming.... and working my way up.
i am thankful every day... EVERY day... for what I have... and that i DO have Vue, because in any flavor - its an excellent program.  (sorry some of the flavors are filled with bugs ATM, though LOL... they will be resolved... soon enough LOL (thats like pluto time or something).)

Pnina... wow, what a beautiful name.  Means pearl? wonderful!  I'll be sure to use Pearl if i shorten your name again =D  ( i really like that... Pnina... Pnina... how do you pronounce that?  is the P silent?)

Mine is Melissa, and is either hebrew or greek for honey bee (my mom's is Deborah and its either hebrew or greek for worker bee - if hers is hebrew, mine's greek, and vice-versa LOL)

oh... and about rekindling passion - you are sooo absolutely correct.  a new tool can work wonders =D  (when i cant afford that option, i head for the tutorials LOL)

ohhh one more... how are my actions and intentions nicer than yours?   LOL.   i just jump in to help cus.. well... that's me.  So what if that's not you - your strengths may lie elsewhere - like in helping point out when someone's messed up a "fact" ;)

you are you and that makes you "you"-nique - NOT "nicer" or "meaner" or that your intentions are any better or worse than mine.  

my problem stems from that brain to finger issue - things get muddled in the middle when i'm trying to type.  Its worse when I'm hand-writing.... so things come out with important words dropped sometimes, and meanings garbled when my intention is to be as clear as possible... (i usually end up as clear as mud...)...

i do my best however, and sincerely hope that others can see that my only intent here (other than to share art with others) is to help others - like they helped me in the past.  That pay-it-forward thing.  Sometimes, I'll jump in just to get someone who actually knows the answer to speak up.  (nothing like the wrong info to bring folks out of the woodwork... LOL)

I've also watched threads where folks ask for help and it sits empty... for DAYS.

And i've had it happen to me.  so, if nothing else - i like to let them know that they've been heard, its not gone into some internet wormhole, and their posts ARENT invisible.... even if i dont have the answer.

there ya go... a quick guide on what makes meli tick in the forums (and what sets her off... defamation of character LOL)  ;)

For those who've been stuck in this side-conversation, I do apologize... Returning thread back to its other discussion ;)

Melikia,
I'll try and be brief(I think worth striving for) :

• i had no intention to attack your character(did I?) just some of the opinions you expressed and some of the info you provided.
  -If people dont have the funds, of course they shouldnt squander the little they have on upgrades.
  But lulu indicated she could buy it if she thought it was worth it, in which case I would encourage her.
• Vue 6 IS inferior to Vue 7 (or at least will be shortly when they ironed out some wrinkles).  Infinite is superior to complete wich i superior to esprit and so on. It is by definition. However I didnt say users of v6  are inferior. You use what you can but should strive/dream for the best, like you did.
  -Pnina is pronounced as it's spelled - P is not silent. Deborah evolved from 'Dvora'  which is indeed the hebrew word for bee. I havnt met the word Melissa in Hebrew, so maybe it's greek.

LOL... brevity usually is best... i just rarely succeed at it =D

and i didnt mean to say you DID attack my character... it just felt like it, and now that we have talked, i see that where you were coming from (what you were saying) and how i read it werent completely compatible.  Mishaps happen, and its always nice when i can sit down and civilly discuss it with the person.

yep, Lulu seems to have to have the funds (as she says, not my actual concern over if they are there or will be, that is for her to figure out)... i just dont like when people i admire (like Lulu - and yes, i've admired your artwork rather quietly for a long time, Lulu... - just wasnt sure i was talking to the same person at first LOL) are weighing a choice... and are not sure... and then are disappointed later with whatever they chose.  It sounds like she's going with complete and its the right choice for her - and disappointment won't be a factor at all. =D

and 6 isnt so much an inferior product... it still has value.  Maybe thats where we're differing... in my head, "inferior" means "not worth much if anything."  this may not be its actual definition, but that's what i was seeing when you used the word.

6 still has value - especially to those who still use it =D.  It is only "inferior" in one sense - that a newer, greater version has emerged.... so here, its just a difference of definitions, possibly?

chuckles  i think im gonna drive hubby nuts saying your name out loud... i like it... but i ahave always loved words that, to me, sound unusual or are just simply FUN to say (Caracas for one LOL).... and like Pnina =D  Thats a very fun (and pretty) name =D  Thank you for sharing it with me!

And yep, I believe you are correct - my mom's name is the Hebrew one, and mine is the Greek version.  we only discovered that when i was in my teens, and thought it very interesting.

(brief enough?  i really tried!)  LOL