Quote - I posted the link because Phantom3d is already taking Poser rigging in other directions from the standard fare available with the rigging setups that deal with the groin/hip/thigh area through the addition of the secondary hip and therefore might find the information useful or thought provoking.

However, please correct my abysmal ignorance and direct me to the pertinent Poser information to correct the shoulder deformation deficiency when posing figures with arms extended overhead.

While I appreciate your vote of confidense in my abilities, I don't claim to have all the answers.  As mentioned above, I was merely commenting on the tools available within Poser for addressing such issues (which don't include weight-mapping).

Aside from that, the only thing I can base my comments on is my own personal experience and understanding of the topic - which is something I'm not entirely unfamiliar with myself, as this thread on a figure of mine from 4 years ago might suggest.  The figure in those images didn't have any JCM or extra bones or anything else fancy, just an early stab at straight Poser rigging (with no 'flat-topping' the thighs, btw).

Quote - It seems all my Poser characters suffer from this so I'm sure that others besides myself would find the information revealing, such as the creators of this figure, Smith Micro, DAZ, and the plethora of figure creators.

Thank you and I eagerly await the solution outlined by you as "anything that can't (or hasn't) already been done in Poser, using Poser methods of acheiving it."

Well, you took my quote out of context, so let me repeat the whole thing first....

Quote - Actually... I guess what I'm really trying to say is that:  While that's an interesting read (thanks for the link!), it doesn't really present anything that can't (or hasn't) already been done in Poser, using Poser methods of achieving it.  About the only 'new' or different thing described there is implementation-specific (using weight-mapped joints/vertices, which we don't have in Poser).

As for examples of JCM and JCD usage, Daz figures are full of them - whether or not the result is effective or not is something you can decide for yourself - but that doesn't mean that it can't be done using those methods (heck, Antonia already has good working JCM on the arms-up poses).

So, getting back the the link you posted and how it relates to Poser.... I wasn't suggesting that it was a worhless effort (ie. "While that's an interesting read..." and "thanks for the link!" both suggest that it may be "thought-provoking", if nothing else) .  I was only trying to outline 'potential' Poser implenentation issues...

• JCMs - yep, we can do  (and have done) that.
• JCDs - (joint-controlled deformers) yep - we can do (and have done) that too (look at V4).
• Weight-mapped vertices/joints - nope, can't do that.

...and that leaves us with "Additional Joints" - I wasn't limiting my response to the "arms up" posing issue, but assuming we are, then... yep - we 'could' do that (and I seem to recall at least one figure that was done/tried, but I don't recall the specifics at the moment), but "my opinion" (which may or may not be worthwhile to you) is that that wouldn't be a compelling solution to the "arms up" issue, in Poser - there's no reason that a JCM couldn't give you the same level of any kind of results you got from adding another (perhaps needlessly complicating) joint.

Just for the record, the above might be said for "other" additional joints (like Phantom has done in this figure), and while I'm not personally sold on the additional hip joint yet myself (I'm also not particulaly against it), I do find the additional foot joint very useful and it falls outside of my comment above in the following ways (ie. why a JCM wouldn't be a better solution in this case): - Since the issue at hand is 'downstream' of the joint in question (foot-bend), you wouldn't want to do a JCM based on the foot bend value (maybe you could do one based on the tow-bend, but see the next point...)

• You don't "always" want the affect to take place.  With an "arms up" situation, you pretty much always want it to look correct/better.  With the additional foot bending that can be achieved with an additional joint, it's "available" for situations where you want the affect, but not forced on you when you don't want it (when simply bending the foot for high-heeled shoes).  Likewise, if it were tied to the toe-bend, you still might not always want it.

...I'd also be in favor of an additional "spine" joint somewhere, for similar reasoning - I'm just undecided so far if this particular implementation makes the most sense - it definately provides more flexibility for doing your typical "waist bend" type poses, but also requires a new workflow and proceedures (ie. doesn't work well with many pre-existing pose files and additional joints like the big toe also need to be added when bending the toe joints, etc).  It also has additional problems - for example, try applying any 2 rotations (X +Y or Z+Y or X+Z, etc.) to the "hip" joint to see the problems.  Whether this particular problem can be 'fixed' or not, I don't know (I hadn't really looked into what's causing it yet).

I hope that gives you some better idea of where I'm coming from - just stating my own opinions, like everyone else.

Cheers,

Keith

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.