ArtPearl opened this issue on Apr 30, 2009 · 76 posts
ArtPearl posted Mon, 04 May 2009 at 3:49 PM
I'm afraid this will be a long post. I'm sorry. I'll put first some general comments, and at the end refer to comments made about specific bugs in my list(so you can skip what isnt relevant to you)
Why am I doing this at all? - Making a stand for customer's right.
Initially I just wanted to inform e-on about bugs I found. I didnt think it will be a big issue, I thought there will be 1 or 2 points and they will be resolved. But that didnt happened. With time it appeared more and more that they dont consider fairness to customers and customer satisfaction an important issue. They will fix(if at all) what they want when they want to. Initial response is almost always quick, but then - it all fades away and the customer isnt even kept informed properly.
So now for me It's still about solving the specific problems, but also a matter of principle. I believe if I pay for a product, it should work. If there are problems with the product, its the company's duty to fix them in a timely manner. If you dont believe in this principle – we have no common ground at all and there isnt much point in me trying to explain it, or you trying to convince me I'm wrong.
Posts in this thread, and elsewhere (in this forum and in other ones) suggest I'm not the only one who feels e-on has a responsibility to deliver a working product and feel let down. So I wanted to emphasize this point, and make a stand publicly. I think it's important.
In addition to the reactions in this thread I also got some private responses – from both extremes, supportive and... well, not suportive to put it mildly...
I just want to quote parts of one message from a person who starts by explaining why he stopped posting on similar issues:
“... Chipp enjoyed trying to debate me and I was never able to put words with my thoughts.
I don't have the education to try and fight him or Rutra.
I am so glad you are willing to take up the fight and prove your self correct when you make a post.
I do know how e-on and its system works and you are 100% right with your not getting any satisfaction for the money you have spent.
Workarounds don't get it in my book. If its advertised to do a job then it should do it.”
That by itself, being a mouth to people who feel they cant stand up for themselves, is good enough reason for me to keep defending this position. Customers have rights, and I intend to express them to the best of my ability.
I also got as 'feedback' that my position is 'petty', 'destructive', 'full of hatred'. Some comments here, although not as explicit, could be interpreted similarly – if the bugs arnt 'show stoppers' or do not relate to features some of the posters see as useful to them, surely those bugs arnt important objectively and thus I must be a petty/negative person...
My position is completely void of any such emotions- purely intellectually driven. I dont hate vue,e-on, people who work at e-on or users who are happy with vue & e-on. In fact if you have no problems or the bugs I and others found dont affect you – great. I'm not trying to get you to submit any tickets. But you cannot tell me what is important and what isnt. I dont do any animations, does that give me a right to say that Avanz's bugs arnt show stoppers? I rarely export objects other than as vob's does that mean that Rich_potter's bug is not important?ALL bugs need to be fixed as a matter of priority. All customers should be kept well informed about the progress about their bugs.
About workarounds – I dont want to seem ungrateful, I do apreceate the effort people put into suggesting temporary ways to alleaveate the effects of some bugs – thank you. But that isnt the point here – the program should work. If I buy a new washing machine and it leaks - I can stand there with a mop and sock up the leaking water, I can try and plug the leak with bubble gum, I can wear dirty clothes for awhile – everyone can see that's not the point! I payed for a working washing machine that's what it should do!
Why is it different for software?
Just a general point about the bugs below- as I said in my op, except for the drop/smart-drop and the 'missing features', e-on can reproduce my results and acknowledge that these are bugs. So my added explanations here are just for general information, not me trying to validate that they are bugs.
Bug 5:
Useful when I want to adjust position or material of sone of the instances in an eco, and then return then to the eco to conserve resource.
Copy from Ticket:
If I create an eco-system and want to change things of a few instances in it, I can convert them to objects . (Edit->select eco sytem instances -> manipulate->convert to objects).
After I move the converted inst-> object items around and position them where I want, I should be able to "put them “back” into the EcoSystem they belonged to, using the Revert
To Instances command that appears at the top of the 3D View popup menu." (in the words of the manual). I did this a lot in v6inf. I just tried it in my new shiny v7 complete - I can convert to object OK (in any of the windows, isnt that great?). But I dont get the 'revert to instances' command in the popup menu. (In none of the windows.)
I attach a screen capture from v6inf, the way it should work. I did exactly the same thing in V7comp and the first line on the top of the pop-up menu isnt there.
(PS - I asked in the renderosity forum, and other v7comp users couldnt do it either, but it seems OK in the v7inf version)
The thread I refered to is
How to move Ecosystem painted plant? http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3373212
Bug 6:
I thought it was fixed too, and there might be an improvement, but I still had a crash after it was supposedly fixed. I sent the crash report itself, maybe that will help, I dont know what that includes in addition to my verbal description.
“If you need a wordaround, let me know and I can suggest a sure fire way to keep from crashing”
Sure – I dont need it right at the moment, but it might help in the future. I dont dispute the helpfulness of workarounds, just saying it doent absolve e-on from fixing it.
(I know one workaround – save it as a vue scene rather than vob and then merge scenes.
Bug 7:
It's not likely to be a focusing problem. That would determine which window/field will get the typed in characters.So the symptom whould be that I type in one “field” and the characters (would apear in another “field”.
My unsubstanciated theory-
This is likely to be actually the keyboard handler. The keyboard doesnt send each character as it is typed, it buffers them up and sends a packet. Macs can have a disordered input from the keyboard, but there is a time stamp with each keypress. Perhaps in windows it is always delivered in the right order and they didnt implement something to check the time stamp?
If I type slow (3 sec between each char) its OK, but it sooooo isnt a solution, not even a temporay one.
Believe me , you would not like to work with this bug no matter how loyal you are to e-on.
Bug 8:
I realize it's harder to sort out an intermitant bug. Particularly frustrating that other users could not reproduce it. But it does happen to me every now and then. I had a whole fleet of boats floating on their side in one image:)...But as I said, someone with good knowledge of the program should have an incling what would cause the confusion, and where to look for a solution. As long as it still happens to me it stays on the list of bugs.
It happens when I use keyborad shortcuts or the icons. I dont know of any workaround except lowering it manually. That's not a bug fix.
Bug 9:
It isnt the polygons/resources field. It isnt the zoom field. It is in the field allocated to the number of lights and objects(between the 2). The numbers in the adjacant fields are still reasonable.
'Show stopper' is no argument for me. It's a bug, and although I havnt noticed it having an effect on anything else, how do you know it doesnt? It is an overflow of some sort, and those can badly affect anything. If it appered in a program I've written I would look for a hole in the ground to be hide in shame and embarasment.
Bug 10:
Units: I selected meters at my units in preferences. Position and pivoting units are displayed correctly using the metric system. The water editor uses real units. But the size -only thing in vue I've seen in internal units. So nothing I can do allows me to see scale in sensible & consistant units.
I'm sure there is a simple conversion factor. I cant believe you are suggesting the USER do the conversion in his head(or even calculator) If the Vue needs it internaly, the program can calculate it.
(and it does in some versions)
All they need to write is
Size_intrnl = Size_real*Factor ; (3 times for x,y,z).
Python programs can do it too.
I quoted e-on's description of the internal units “usually not very useful, but provided for compatibility with previous versions”. Not useful. Their words. If for some obscure technical reason its useful for a pro, they can have it. In the artist line, if you give us no option, take away the 'not useful' option.
Maybe not a bug in the sense that the program does what its told, but a useless choice.
Resizing a render:
It is very much a disruption and hinderance to my work. This is actually one that annoys me a lot.
If you dont need it – you dont have to use it, obviousely. I relied on it a lot in v6. I didnt see it mentioned as an omitted feature – so I would like it back.
Mazak claims that this is what is meant by “User Interface: View option menu commands with optional shortcuts. “ I dont think so. 'Shortcuts' are the the technical term for using keyboard combinations to replace clicking on an icon. If they took away the customised keboard shortcuts for complete, it doesnt mean they take away the icon action too.
Bug 11
If I'm still in the align pallete I can click the 'non' botton to change what I selected first(eg center or min)I agree this in effect is a cancel, but isnt what the main bug is. As you say when I think I'v finished I click the x to close it. Once I do that there is no undo, either immediately or as part of multiple undos.
Yes, some operations cannot be undone, like any type of save. But why should align be one of these?
It is only a 'move' , and you can undo move commands in vue.
If its a big deal to you is irrelevant. I would like to use it, you dont have to.
Bug 12
Using a box – I use it fairly often, and it is extremely useful. I know some other users (at least one of them considerd a 'guru') that use it too. The purpose of using it is to have good control on lighting. If I enclose everything, including the camera, in a box, I know all the light come from the lights in the box and that's it. I dont know why you call it a solid – it isnt. It has 6 planes surronding it and that's it. Sometimes I use a sphere – same thing, it is hollow inside and I know exactly what the lights do.
It may give leakage if I use radiosity, but I dont always use that, and if I need radiosity I can replace it with something with thicker walls. Anyway, this is a red herring – if I used a room with thick walls but no windows or doors the bug will manifest itself too.
I understand what autoexposure does. People who do not want to use it can chose not to – although I really hate the fact that it is on by defualt. The point is if I have a ground plane in my box and autoexposure on, there is no glow. Why should there be a glow when it's a water plane?
I'm not saying this will hamper my work for every single image, but I wasted a weekend trying to figure out where the light comes from when I first discovered the bug.
Finally – bug categories: those are usefull to know. I would love it if e-on had a searchable public bug database and these cataergories were assigned to each bug. In addition, an estimate when it will be fixed would be helpful. Unfortunately e-on keeps bug reports a secret, and dont tell even the person who submited it what category their bug is.
It isnt true that they fix severe bugs quicker than little bugs. Most crash reports I submitted via the automatic submition, didnt even get an acknowledgment. ( I didnt even include those in my list).
The dislexia bug is severe. No sign of fixing. The 'revert to instances' is severe – claimed to be fixed, but not implemented...
I'm not even sure it is a good idea to delay small bug fixes – some of them would be trivial to fix and yield happy customers.
"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams,
or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not
wish to paint, the things which already have an
existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
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