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That's why I NEVER use them! They're useless. I use only  Ray-traced and HDR-Ibl's in my work.NOW. I used to use DM shadows long ago, when glowing nostrils and such were just mysteries I couldn't figure out how to get rid of. :laugh:  Now I've moved on to bigger, better lighting and materials and renders there in.  After using other renderers, I'm spoiled on Global radiosity and global Illumination. ^__^V,,

JOELGLAINE, are you moaning? ;-)