This is just to let you know that I retain any and all copyrights to ALL images I may have posted. You have permission to display them in the Poser Forum Gallery provided they are viewed without cost and not distributed in anyway in any collection - electronic, printed or any other media existing now or in the future. If you do not agree to the above conditions, you are instructed by me, the copyright holder, to delete ANY and ALL copies of said pictures. Failure to abide by the above conditions will be treated as copyright violation and theft. The day I see one of my images sold or distributed in anyway by your company is the day I have my attorneys fill suit against you for copyright violation.

Please repost this kind of message to the Forum Contact Board. This is the Poser Related Section. Thank you, -Jeff H.

This was in reponse to the message to Edgenet that the original founders of the forum posted... but which Edgenet promptly deleted. I'll give them this... they're quick...

Ookami, there is a 2nd side to what they posted. EN did have their side up on the front page. Maybe its an idea to have it back up again, guys. Specially if they are going to keep doing stunts like that. Ali

I wouldn't mind hearing the other side... but since Willow and friends are the ones who have been the driving force behind creating and maintaining the Poser Forum... I'm wary...

Roy and myself were part of that original PFO. -Jeff H. "There from day one"

So what is your take on the situation Jeff?

The article was never deleted, it was just closed. The article is still available to everyone under the 'Past Issues' link. Click the 1999-09-27 link there. I closed the article after a few days, because I don't think its healthy for us to keep dwelling on the past around here.

ookami, I have known Willow online for about a year as part of the PFO Admin Team. In that time she has been the most difficult, demanding and manipulative person that I have ever had to deal with. She will say or do what ever it takes to get what she wants and doesn't care who she steps on in the process. She tells everyone in her version of events that this all started on september 16, 1999 with a letter she recieved from Edgenet. I can tell you that she already had www.poserforum.org and www.poserforum.net registered as a domains on september 7th 1999. This is all a matter of Public record, you can check it. She has been planning to move the forum since June of 1999, so she could take full advantage of the advertising money that a Poser Related Forum can generate. Would she need to do this if she was truely a Non-Profit Organization? Ask her. You can read that letter from edgenet she mentions for yourself and decide: http://www.poserforum.com/index.ez?viewDay=1999-09-27 -Jeff H.

I'd also like to point out that you all thought I was being vocal about censorship over the last few months. Which wasn't the case. I was trying to point out how manipulative Willow was, and how unfair she was treating us all. There was always two sets of rules, one for us pions and one for Willow. but as usual the minute someone said anything against Willow, or something she didnt' agree with, she slung mud till the real issues were hidden. Oh gee, hasn't she done this with the issue of who did what concerning the forum? roy: Ahh, thanks. I didnt' see that, and your right. We should all move on. Ali

heyas; i believe i know what prompted this. somebody on pfo posted a link to edgenet's main policy page, dealing with edgenet's copyright and ownership/privacy policies for edgenet holdings, and implied that these contradictory 'rules' superceded the specific poserforum.com copyright/privacy rules. this should be fairly simple to clear up.

Blah..hate when I type something and my browser eats it...guess I'll try again: Jeff: Ya know, I find it really interesting how this is all going and how the people involved (on both sides) seem to choose - either conciously or subconciously - what they hear and what facts they say or imply. What you say above is an example. Not trying to start an argument...but it implies a lot. Even if it is your take on event, as a lead on the forum it carries a lot of weight. An example is the statement of when Willow registered the domains, even though she already publicly stated that the creation of the new site was underway before she received the e-mail from Edgenet. As for the question of "Would she need to do this if she was truely a Non-Profit Organization?" It's really amazing how many people have no idea what a non-profit organization is. Non-profit does not mean you don't make money...it means that everything that is taken in goes for the upkeep and betterment (sp?) of the organization. "Televangical" organizations are a good example. These people rake in billions of dollars a year (from both donations and ad revenue) and employ thousands of salaried employees, yet they are non-profit organizations. I don't know about anyone else, but in my mind -- if it was me, would I do all this to keep full control of the advertising of my site? I'd be a fool not to. -=>Donald (EG)

Donald, you have some interesting points regarding non-profit and Willow's motives. but willow had made a informal agreement with EN that they got the ad revenue to pay for the costs of hosting the site. When they heard rumors about various things and after she had approched them demanding total control of the ad banners, to make the agreement more formal, with both sides benafiting from the ad banners etc (and that is it. They did offer to help out more, but were willing and happy with remaining the host only.) Willow did her usual hissy fit and we have the following outcome. The difference being that Willow didn't own this site. EN did. They provided the space, the servers, the bandwidth and the code the forum ran on. By Willow's story and words, EN didnt' deserve to get any revenue from the ad banners because it wasn't their site. (I'm not talking content here guys, I'm talking the hardware side of it.) To me, its as plain as day Willow wanted and tried to screw EN over. Simple as that. My loyality doesn't belong to someone who'll screw those trying to help, or those who have a differing opinion to hers. Oh what I think the guys are trying to say with the non-profit bit and how much its (the PFO) is making etc, is just how much is Willow paying herself? Where are the accounting books? Has anyone seen them? (I don't know the legal stuff here, but surely as members, we should know where the money is going?) Ali

Ali: Yes, I understand what EdgeNet says is their position and their take on the events that occured. I also understand what Willow says. As some have said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and I doubt anyone will ever know what that is. You know, while I truly appreciate EdgeNet's hosting of this site, I don't for a second believe that it was done from altruism, the goodness of their hearts or to just help out. Yes, they backed this forum with hardware, software and technical expertise; but it was nowhere close to a one-sided proposition for them. No we didn't pay money, but how much do you think the number of hits we supplied to their servers each day increased the fees they can now charge for ad space here? How much do you think our services as beta-testers was worth to them? How much was it worth to have dozens of sites including companies like Metacreations and Zygote linking back to their site? The benefits flowed both ways. Does this make them the Evil Empire? No, it makes them business-people. We could go around and around on this. Just as we could on the whole "is there money and where does it go" issue. Personally, I still don't understand why anyone cares or why they think that they have the right to know. If I paid money to Willow for accessing the PFO, then I -might- have a different POV on it all. As for me it probably comes down to one thing - the belief that EdgeNet Media doesn't care about Poser or 3D art. I truly believe that this could have been the "Pan Flute Forum" and would have been treated the same if it was as popular and generated the response that the PFO did. So I guess it also comes down to trust for me..who do I trust to keep the forum going? Someone with a personal stake in the forum and a love of the art or a business that would have been just as happy if this was the "Teletubbies Forum"? -=>Donald (EG)

I think that both sides came out winners in this situation. When the Willow and her team left, they ended up taking the user-base, simply as a function of time spent developing it. On the other hand, EN ended up with a user-harded discussion board that they can use to spawn other boards. There will never be a clear, un-biased answer to what really happened here. It's the same with any conflict. The history will be written by those that try to interpret the opposing points of view. It may be time for both sites to realize what they have gained and start working with what they have to make it even better.

Sorry, but I can't just continue to sit by and bite my tongue on this topic forever. EdgeNet was really not involved in this project, it was me. I personally took responsibility for this site. I asked my boss, and he gave me access to a machine that we were not using for anything else. That was about the extent of EdgeNet's involvement before now. Now if anyone thinks I know nothing about Poser, or care about it, how about this: I wrote two utility programs, PHI Builder, and Mapping Magician both were FREEWARE, not even shareware. I wrote a couple articles for 3D Artist. I wrote a section for the Poser 3 handbook by Shamms. I wrote some of the very first clothing tutorials and explained to everyone how to pull apart OBJ files before all of the newer utilities could. I would be willing to bet that I sent in more bug reports than anyone else on Poser 3. I have no doubt in my mind the original Poser 3 patch took so long is because of the bugs I personally submitted. How dare anyone say I don't care about Poser. Roy

I guess what I really meant to point out was that Willow made statements and still does to the effect that "Big Bad EN" had plans to steal works of art and "Squash our creativity". This seems to be her battle cry these days. It only proves that she will say anything to get what she wants. I'm sure everyone here has read the letter from EN by now, how could anyone with half a brain misinterpret it's meaning that way? People were so quick to believe every word she said without putting any thought into it...people I think of as being very intelligent. It's hard to understand. -Jeff H.

Exactly Jeff. That was the thinking behind my sheep comments. Which I shouldn't of said, but well, I did. I just found it hard to understand and accept that these people I respected and liked could believe what Willow had to say without thinking and then after the facts come out, still believe her. I suppose thats human nature and free will. Ali

Roy: You don't have to list your accomplishments for me, I am well aware of them and in awe of what you have done for the community. I am also very grateful for your programs. My comments were not directed at you or any single individual - if you felt they were, then I'm truly sorry. They were directed at the business entity EdgeNet Media. If you can tell me that Edgenet cares about Poser as you do, then I will amend my belief in that area. Jeff: I'm sorry, but a single e-mail does not tell me anything. I have no context for it. I'd need to see a lot more of the communication between the two parties leading up to it. I think that anyone who has ever worked in a large business organization knows that it is almost always the phonecalls that lead up to the "e-mail" that tell the real story. As for Willow's comments, from the context I -originally- saw them in, I believe (there's that word again -- am I 100% certain, no chance) that she may have had/has a point but like a lot of things in life, taken out of context and on its own, it sounds ludicrous. Again, it's one of those things that you can go round and round on. Who was right and who was wrong? Don't think anyone was all of either...I think that, to some extent, we were all wrong and responsible for the way things went. But you know what the poet once said, from chaos all great things grow. -=>Donald (EG)

EdgeNet produces intellectual property in the form of software for it's livelihood. It cares about the creative spirit & the tapping the passion of its employees. EdgeNet is obsessive about the proper licensing of intellectual property when used. I have always viewed Roy's involvement with this community & EdgeNet's mission of developing commerce communities as synergistic. Our contribution to this site to date has not approached a profitable state. However, we have been straight-forward about our intent to move closer to that goal. Of course this will not happen by stealing intellectual property, but by the conventional online community revenue streams of advertising, sponsorships, and potentially e-commerce. To achieve this, we will have to provide an environment and tools which meet the needs of the members. Likewise, we will have to conduct ourselves in a manner which wins the trust of the community. Sorry for the spiel, but like Roy, I felt a need to respond to some of the assertions above. Tim Choate